The Falwell Affair

[MaxVel]

My question would be why are Christian pastors/leaders so often found to be adulterers, swindlers, and on several occasions gay? The latter often being the most vile anti gay ranters - Haggard comes to mind.

Someone should do a research thesis on the Christian Right, hypocrisy, and Freudian denial.

What evidence is there for 'so often'? How many 'Christian leaders' are there, and what percentage are found to be (...)? How does that compare with 'leaders' in other areas, such as business, sport, teaching, scouts, medicine etc?

Not that I'm defending Christian leaders as all being above reproach - it just seems a bit meaningless if we have nothing to compare it to. Also, maybe they come under greater scrutiny, so more of the bad apples are discovered... ?

[Cow Poke]

What evidence is there for 'so often'? How many 'Christian leaders' are there, and what percentage are found to be (...)? How does that compare with 'leaders' in other areas, such as business, sport, teaching, scouts, medicine etc?

Not that I'm defending Christian leaders as all being above reproach - it just seems a bit meaningless if we have nothing to compare it to. Also, maybe they come under greater scrutiny, so more of the bad apples are discovered... ?

And it's generally the Christian leaders who "rise to fame" -- it could well be that part of the problem is their lust for power or inability to handle fame.

In a case like Falwell, I have to wonder if he was actually "God called", or was simply heir to the dynasty his father created. Same with Joel Osteen, whose father I knew personally, and it's no secret that John Osteen's wife "appointed" Joel to be heir to the dynasty built by John.

Lastly - these fallen leaders are men. Subject to lusts, temptation, pride.... There needs to be an extra special emphasis on purity in a situation like this.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

What evidence is there for 'so often'? How many 'Christian leaders' are there, and what percentage are found to be (...)? How does that compare with 'leaders' in other areas, such as business, sport, teaching, scouts, medicine etc?

Not that I'm defending Christian leaders as all being above reproach - it just seems a bit meaningless if we have nothing to compare it to. Also, maybe they come under greater scrutiny, so more of the bad apples are discovered... ?

Given your remarks to me on another thread, I suppose it is like paedophiles - you only know about them when they get caught and named.

However, there have been at least a dozen American Christian leaders/pastors/spokesmen [and they have been men] who, while condemning all things gay, have been outed for gay activities. The various financial scams, infidelities, and so forth have been noted in this thread. Then there is the tax evasion, racketeering, fraud and so forth.

Clearly Acton's wise words apply to Christian leaders as appropriately as they do to all other areas of power.

[KingsGambit]

And it's generally the Christian leaders who "rise to fame" -- it could well be that part of the problem is their lust for power or inability to handle fame.

In a case like Falwell, I have to wonder if he was actually "God called", or was simply heir to the dynasty his father created. Same with Joel Osteen, whose father I knew personally, and it's no secret that John Osteen's wife "appointed" Joel to be heir to the dynasty built by John.

Lastly - these fallen leaders are men. Subject to lusts, temptation, pride.... There needs to be an extra special emphasis on purity in a situation like this.

Those who just quietly and faithfully serve rarely become famous.

[Faber]

The bad apples are more prominent when placed in a barrel of good apples, and less obvious in a basket of rotten apples.

My observation has been that some pastors can be elevated to such a high position that they are often too busy or too preoccupied to be in normal fellowship with the rest of the believers, and therefore have nobody to whom they are accountable. I had a former pastor about five decades ago, very highly respected by his congregation, was often a guest speaker at family conferences. He and his wife raised several foster children and adopted a few of them.

My cousin C--, who lived about 40 miles away, was interested in a teenager at our church and would spend the weekends at our home so that he could see her. At the same time, there was a hard-to-place boy that was placed in my pastor's home. He and my cousin became acquainted. Afterwards, C-- and this girl broke up and he no longer came to spend weekends with us. Then this hard-to-place foster boy ran away from the pastor's home.

About a year later, this hard-to-place boy started showing up at C--'s high school, having been relocated to that area. He told C-- that the pastor tried to sexually molest him. Now who are you going to believe, a juvenile delinquent runaway or a highly respected pastor and leader of family conferences?

Anyway, my family and I left that church for other reasons: the pastor had become domineering, controlling, cult-like. Others had left also, and all that were left were "followers", little leadership qualities, spoon-fed and do what they were told types. Then a few years after I left, everything blew up. The pastor's wife caught him, confronted him. His adult son was put in charge of the church and he deserted his family. The police were searching for him and found him in a hotel, having unsuccessfully attempted to kill himself by overdosing on drugs. The charges against him were sexually penetrating and molesting three of his foster boys. There were reports that he had tried to kill his wife also.

Things like this among Christian leaders is all too common. (Even one incident is one too many!) Probably because they have nobody to give account to. I'm sure it's also very common among unbelievers, but who takes notice when it happens then? It's common among politicians. Among hollywood performers. But nobody blinks an eye.

[Juvenal]

Now who are you going to believe, a juvenile delinquent runaway or a highly respected pastor and leader of family conferences?

I've heard this story many times over. Not being believed is as bad as it gets. It means there's nowhere to turn for help.

[Juvenal]

I'm sure it's also very common among unbelievers, but who takes notice when it happens then?

The Catholic church went to some trouble to show the prevalence of sexual predators in the priesthood was about the same as in the general public. Not that I trust numbers generated by an organization under fire for covering their numbers up. Not sure how they could trust their own numbers, for that matter.

The point being that where an individual offender has a vested interest in keeping things on the down low, they don't have the resources to sweep the issue into another parish. For that you need an organization, and not just any organization, an organization with a vested interest in exemplary morality.

But nobody blinks an eye.

If that were true, we wouldn't be talking about it, now would we?

There are ways to make accountability work, the most direct being moving the investigations outside of the organization giving them true independence. So long as the boss or the owner can just fire the investigator, that's an option they're going to use.

[Juvenal]

Says here Liberty U has chosen to sweep the issue under a $10 MM parachute, thank Jr for his service, and move on.

After Jerry Falwell Jr.’s departure, Liberty University faces questions about faith, power, accountability

[One Bad Pig]

I've heard this story many times over. Not being believed is as bad as it gets. It means there's nowhere to turn for help.

Point.

[Cow Poke]

Those who just quietly and faithfully serve rarely become famous.

Or infamous.

[Cow Poke]

The bad apples are more prominent when placed in a barrel of good apples, and less obvious in a basket of rotten apples.

My observation has been that some pastors can be elevated to such a high position that they are often too busy or too preoccupied to be in normal fellowship with the rest of the believers, and therefore have nobody to whom they are accountable. I had a former pastor about five decades ago, very highly respected by his congregation, was often a guest speaker at family conferences. He and his wife raised several foster children and adopted a few of them.

My cousin C--, who lived about 40 miles away, was interested in a teenager at our church and would spend the weekends at our home so that he could see her. At the same time, there was a hard-to-place boy that was placed in my pastor's home. He and my cousin became acquainted. Afterwards, C-- and this girl broke up and he no longer came to spend weekends with us. Then this hard-to-place foster boy ran away from the pastor's home.

About a year later, this hard-to-place boy started showing up at C--'s high school, having been relocated to that area. He told C-- that the pastor tried to sexually molest him. Now who are you going to believe, a juvenile delinquent runaway or a highly respected pastor and leader of family conferences?

Anyway, my family and I left that church for other reasons: the pastor had become domineering, controlling, cult-like. Others had left also, and all that were left were "followers", little leadership qualities, spoon-fed and do what they were told types. Then a few years after I left, everything blew up. The pastor's wife caught him, confronted him. His adult son was put in charge of the church and he deserted his family. The police were searching for him and found him in a hotel, having unsuccessfully attempted to kill himself by overdosing on drugs. The charges against him were sexually penetrating and molesting three of his foster boys. There were reports that he had tried to kill his wife also.

Things like this among Christian leaders is all too common. (Even one incident is one too many!) Probably because they have nobody to give account to. I'm sure it's also very common among unbelievers, but who takes notice when it happens then? It's common among politicians. Among hollywood performers. But nobody blinks an eye.

I was taught by my own Pastor always to be accountable. To surround yourself with men to whom you would give account. I love that.

[MaxVel]

Given your remarks to me on another thread, I suppose it is like paedophiles - you only know about them when they get caught and named.

However, there have been at least a dozen American Christian leaders/pastors/spokesmen [and they have been men]

So what's that as a percentage? How does it compare to leaders in other fields?

If 'so often' is to have any meaning apart from "I notice it" then you need to supply a frame of comparison.

who, while condemning all things gay, have been outed for gay activities. The various financial scams, infidelities, and so forth have been noted in this thread. Then there is the tax evasion, racketeering, fraud and so forth.

Clearly Acton's wise words apply to Christian leaders as appropriately as they do to all other areas of power.

Sure. Christian leaders shouldn't (of all people) be corrupt or immoral. But they are still people, and some will still fall. And then there's the ones that shouldn't have been leaders in the first place, the ones who inherit Dad's business, so to speak, and so on....

[shunyadragon]

My question would be why are Christian pastors/leaders so often found to be adulterers, swindlers, and on several occasions gay? The latter often being the most vile anti gay ranters - Haggard comes to mind.

Someone should do a research thesis on the Christian Right, hypocrisy, and Freudian denial.

My problem is like Falwell the immoral outragious behavior was carried on for some time. Power and authority without accountability The wide spread problem of the priesthood of the Roman Church is a comparable problem.

[Cow Poke]

My problem is like Falwell the immoral outragious behavior was carried on for some time. Power and authority without accountability The wide spread problem of the priesthood of the Roman Church is a comparable problem.

I think the "power and authority without accountability", in this case, is because Falwell WAS "the power" --- he inherited it from his father, just like Joel Osteen inherited his own "kingdom" from his father.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

So what's that as a percentage? How does it compare to leaders in other fields?

If 'so often' is to have any meaning apart from "I notice it" then you need to supply a frame of comparison.





Sure. Christian leaders shouldn't (of all people) be corrupt or immoral. But they are still people, and some will still fall. And then there's the ones that shouldn't have been leaders in the first place, the ones who inherit Dad's business, so to speak, and so on....

The thing that often appears to be the case is that the ones that are exposed by the media are the ones who have a penchant for inveighing against the very things they are caught doing.

The pastor who inveighs against divorce and adultery is exposed as an adulterer.
The pastor who inveighs against pornography is caught visiting prostitutes.
The pastor who inveighs against the evils of homosexuality is exposed by his boyfriend.

It's rank hypocrisy.

And, as I mentioned earlier, Acton's wise words apply as much to Christian leaders, both now and in the past, as they do to any other situations or organisations where power accumulates.