I - an atheist - have an objective standard for Good

[Sparko]

Right, so mercy, so long as you believe, and hell if you don't happen to believe. That's a silly idea of a just god, Sparko, particularly when you take into account that most people who have ever lived never even heard of your god.

If you are running towards a cliff and I tell you to stop, there is a cliff ahead, and you don't believe me, then you will die. It wasn't not believing me that killed you, it was the sudden stop at the bottom of the cliff and your deliberate action of running off the cliff that killed you. You killed yourself with your actions. If I were not there to warn you and you ran off the cliff, it wouldn't be my fault you died. You still died because of your own actions.

And because you happen to believe, you won't be punished. Give me a break. The whole point is fear. Either accept it whether you believe it or not, or go to hell. Dumb!

Those who believed me about the cliff didn't fall off and die. Either believe me or fall off the cliff. But if you fall off the cliff, it was because YOU ran off the edge.

[Sparko]

Atheism is neither true nor false. It is a lack of one particular belief.


Atheism is not a world view. It may well form part of any number of world views; it is not a world view in and of itself.


Atheism doesn't "ultimately lead" anywhere.


Atheism doesn't have any implications to embrace.

Why is it that (some) theists want to constantly tell atheists what their atheism means, leads to and involves? They're invariably wrong.

Atheism is saying you know there is no God. That is a positive statement of belief.

[Juvenal]

Jim, do you ever hope you are wrong and there is a God and an afterlife? Just asking.

I'll answer that.

That would depend on the qualities of the God and the quality of the afterlife.

Judging God and any likely afterlife on the quality of the created beings I'd be most likely to share it with, oh hell no!

Excepting you pirate, I'm there for pillaging villages with ya for eternity.

But if I were able to pick a better God, and by better God I mean an idealized creator deity contrary to perceived reality, and not the myriad other eternal divine beings humans have called gods, or even creator deities with no more interest in me than I have in my deceased-by-neglect houseplants, who seem more likely as creators go... then maybe, but only with the understanding that my understanding could itself become infinite, which doesn't seem likely, either. You can't put an infinity of experiences into any finite vessel, of course, and if we're not finite vessels, are we even human?

Now here's one for you, a serious question for people who believe in an unseen God and believe that's ante for any entry ticket to heaven.

Do you think there's going to be a lot of call for that in eternity?

[Juvenal]

Atheism is saying you know there is no God. That is a positive statement of belief.

Nah, just means not being a theist.

Sheesh, pirate, it's almost like you haven't been hearing that right on this board for the last 20 years.

[Esther]

Now here's one for you, a serious question for people who believe in an unseen God...

Juvenal, for Christians it is not believing in an unseen God. We believe that God sent Jesus Christ to earth in the form of a man and we believe Jesus is God the Son and the Son of God. He is the visible representation of the unseen God.

[Juvenal]

Juvenal, for Christians it is not believing in an unseen God. We believe that God sent Jesus Christ to earth in the form of a man and we believe Jesus is God the Son and the Son of God. He is the visible representation of the unseen God.

If it's believing in an unseen God for reasons ...

We believe that ... Jesus Christ ... is the visible representation of the unseen God.

... it's still believing in an unseen God.

All of which sidesteps my question.

Do you think there's going to be a lot of call for that in eternity?

I ask because entry requirements generally do reflect future needs.

[Diogenes]

Nah, just means not being a theist.

To be fair, it could mean anything.

Sheesh, pirate, it's almost like you haven't been hearing that right on this board for the last 20 years.

If you accept the credibility of the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (P), then you would accept atheism as the proposition that God does not exist (Q).


If P, then Q.
~Q.
~P

[Sparko]

I'll answer that.

That would depend on the qualities of the God and the quality of the afterlife.

Judging God and any likely afterlife on the quality of the created beings I'd be most likely to share it with, oh hell no!

"hell" no? Ironic. CS Lewis said that the reason there are people in hell is because the door is locked from the inside.

Excepting you pirate, I'm there for pillaging villages with ya for eternity.

With bacon I hope.

But if I were able to pick a better God, and by better God I mean an idealized creator deity contrary to perceived reality, and not the myriad other eternal divine beings humans have called gods, or even creator deities with no more interest in me than I have in my deceased-by-neglect houseplants, who seem more likely as creators go... then maybe, but only with the understanding that my understanding could itself become infinite, which doesn't seem likely, either. You can't put an infinity of experiences into any finite vessel, of course, and if we're not finite vessels, are we even human?

I think that describes the difference between believers and non-believers pretty well. A lot of people put themselves on the throne and are happy to believe in a God that fits their designs. When I became a Christian, I had to decide that I would follow the God of the bible, even when I didn't agree with him or his 'laws' - and put my own desires and wishes in second place.

I don't think our understanding will become infinite, what does that even mean? You want to be like God, omniscient? That won't happen and you are right, you would not be human any longer, I don't think. I think we will be human, maybe as perfect and smart as humans can be, but not gods. We will be immortal and live forever. But I have no idea how that works either. The bible is mostly concerned with what goes on here and how we are to behave. It doesn't go into a lot of detail about heaven or the new Earth.

Now here's one for you, a serious question for people who believe in an unseen God and believe that's ante for any entry ticket to heaven.

Do you think there's going to be a lot of call for that in eternity?

A lot of call for what?

[Sparko]

Nah, just means not being a theist.

Sheesh, pirate, it's almost like you haven't been hearing that right on this board for the last 20 years.

Well a theist just means not being an atheist, then.

[Electric Skeptic]

False. Atheism is the lack of belief in the existence of a god. Some (few, in my experience) atheists are what are known as 'hard' or 'strong' atheists, and believe no gods exist. The vast majority merely lack belief in the existence of gods.

From here:
Definition of atheist

: a person who does not believe in the existence of a god or any gods : one who subscribes to or advocates atheism

[Electric Skeptic]

Wrong again. Theism is an active position; a belief in the existence of gods. Atheism is the lack of such a belief - in other words, non-theism.

[Stoic]

To be fair, it could mean anything.



If you accept the credibility of the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (P), then you would accept atheism as the proposition that God does not exist (Q).


If P, then Q.
~Q.
~P

I believe the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy is very credible when it says, "Again, there is more than one “correct” definition of “atheism”. "

[Electric Skeptic]

I disagree that you have on objective standard for 'good' here - to begin with (and most obviously) your definition of 'good' is entirely subjective.

[Sparko]

False. Atheism is the lack of belief in the existence of a god. Some (few, in my experience) atheists are what are known as 'hard' or 'strong' atheists, and believe no gods exist. The vast majority merely lack belief in the existence of gods.

From here:
Definition of atheist

: a person who does not believe in the existence of a god or any gods : one who subscribes to or advocates atheism

But it is still a positive statement. Especially Internet Atheists like you. You are not content to just "not beleive" you have to actively engage with believers to tell them you don't believe and that they are wrong and argue about it. And some atheists actually make a living being atheists and writing books about it. That is more than just a 'lack of belief'

I don't believe in unicorns, but I don't go around arguing with people who do, or writing books about the lack of unicorns, or even getting a degree in Unicornology.

[Sparko]

Wrong again. Theism is an active position; a belief in the existence of gods. Atheism is the lack of such a belief - in other words, non-theism.

No, theism is lack of belief in atheism.