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I - an atheist - have an objective standard for Good

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  • Originally posted by JimL View Post
    But, just like you, people don't have the cognitive capacity to know that Jesus is god which is why some people like yourself subjectively believe, and others do not subjectively believe. That's the issue, not babies. And that issue for christians is resolved in that unless one subjectively believes, they lose. That is idiotic.
    You don't get a pardon if you refuse the pardon! If a wealthy man with pure intentions opened his home to orphans, he can't go kidnap them!
    If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
      You don't get a pardon if you refuse the pardon! If a wealthy man with pure intentions opened his home to orphans, he can't go kidnap them!
      Do you guys keep missing the point on purpose or is it just poor reading comprehension skills? Nobody knows that your god exists, some subjectively believe the stories and some do not. According to your belief god punishes people if their genuine subjective beliefs are in error. And most people in the world, according to you, are in error.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by JimL View Post
        Do you guys keep missing the point on purpose or is it just poor reading comprehension skills? Nobody knows that your god exists, some subjectively believe the stories and some do not. According to your belief god punishes people if their genuine subjective beliefs are in error. And most people in the world, according to you, are in error.
        They aren't punished for ignorance of historical facts. They're punished for all the times they acted like a jerk to other people! Guess what? The Old Testament saints didn't have the full picture, but they were saved by trusting in God. There's a whole debate between inclusive and exclusive views of people getting saved and how much knowledge is needed, and it's better to hear the word and accept it, otherwise what would be the point of missionaries? Only God knows if some one living thousands of years ago and far from any Jews or Christians decided to trust in the Being that had to be above their gods for salvation. There probably wouldn't be as many that would be saved that way; most people are more concerned with getting their next meal.
        If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          I would like to be present when you face God and explain to him how you are better than him.
          When all else fails threaten eternal hellfire. Standard stuff.
          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            If Christianity is right, you will find out what "objective morality" is when you stand before God.
            Are you saying that might makes right, and since God has a big stick to hit us with that he therefore gets to say what's right and wrong?

            Philosophically speaking, God's personal opinion on morality is just as subjective as my neighbour's. The only meaningful difference from a philosophical point of view between God and my neighbour with regard to objective morality, is that if an objective morality exists (i.e. as something external to God), then God's more likely to have an informed opinion about what it is than my neighbour is.

            But most theists don't seem to take the view that God knowing lots puts him in a good position to learn what that external objective morality is and thus to inform us of it, instead they seem to think that God sets morality by his will. And they think he then backs it up with the big stick...eventually. Except their view doesn't make sense even on the face of it because typically in their view if you believe in Jesus then you're all-good with respect to that judgement and if you don't believe in Jesus then your specific actions don't matter cos you get the stick, so there's nothing to be gained or lost for any given human by knowing or not knowing what God's moral code is or isn't and acting, or not acting, according to it. Which then makes that moral code totally irrelevant, since it's never enforced nor need be paid any attention to by anyone.
            "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
            "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
            "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

            Comment


            • I think fundy athiests must think God is merely a superpowered human. Like the Greek gods or various fictional superheroes. There is more difference between God and those mere finite powerful entities than there is between said finite powerful entities and an embryo. God created everything, thus He owns everything including us.
              If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

              Comment


              • Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                As far as torture is concerned, we have "love your neighbor as yourself" (Lev. 19:18), which would forbid that. As far as eternal punishment is concerned, people wonder why God doesn't punish every sin completely and immediately. But that is the definition of hell, and the torment is the punishment for continuing in sin. And as far as abortion is concerned, "You shall not kill" (Ex. 20:13) would forbid this.

                Blessings,
                Lee
                Those that torture do not concider the tortured their neighbor. The proper consideration of 'Though shalt not kill" is in reality 'Though shalt not commit wrongful death.' All cultures including the Christian cultures do a lot of killing, and justify it as righteous killing.

                The Bible advocates slavery as long it is slavery of foreigners, but not neighbors, members of the same tribe or neighbors it was indentured servatude.
                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                  I think fundy athiests must think God is merely a superpowered human. Like the Greek gods or various fictional superheroes. There is more difference between God and those mere finite powerful entities than there is between said finite powerful entities and an embryo. God created everything, thus He owns everything including us.
                  Yes. There is no good reason to think that god is not just a creation of man, made in his own image - with the same human passions and demands, including the desire to be praised.
                  “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                    They aren't punished for ignorance of historical facts.
                    That they are facts are in question, but they are your beliefs.

                    They're punished for all the times they acted like a jerk to other people!
                    No, they are not, they are punished according to your belief because they don't believe the bible is factual history and so do not believe in your god. The only reason you believe that you're saved is because you believe in Jesus, and so the opposite is true for the non-believers, they are punished for their non-belief.

                    Guess what? The Old Testament saints didn't have the full picture, but they were saved by trusting in God. There's a whole debate between inclusive and exclusive views of people getting saved and how much knowledge is needed, and it's better to hear the word and accept it, otherwise what would be the point of missionaries? Only God knows if some one living thousands of years ago and far from any Jews or Christians decided to trust in the Being that had to be above their gods for salvation. There probably wouldn't be as many that would be saved that way; most people are more concerned with getting their next meal.
                    How about the NT saints? Did they have the full picture? Do you have to believe in Jesus if he is to pardon/save you? But you're argument "there probably won't be as many saved that way" is silly, unless you believe in an unjust god who plays favorites. Oh wait, he is unjust, he does play favorites: Romans 9:14-24. God creates each person, "raises you up" to act out gods own purposes. If you believe Paul, you're just gods wind-up toy and if you are lucky you're one of his favorites. Considering the alternative, that might not be a bad thing supposing he doesn't tire of you. But if you don't agree with that interpretation, if you believe you can rationalize free will for yourself out of Pauls words, then the christian doctrine is one of injustice.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                      I think fundy athiests must think God is merely a superpowered human.
                      I think fundy atheist is a very wrong description of me, but yes I would say from a philosophical point of view I see little meaningful logical difference between God and a superpowered human. Asserting that he's totally totally different when your explanation amounts to "because theologians say he's infinite and stuff" doesn't hold much water philosophically. If you reflect on your own religion for a moment, you'll remember God created man in his own image, we are supposed to be like him in some meaningful way. Eastern Orthodox Christians put a lot of emphasis on this, and their idea of theosis (man becoming more God-like / Christ-like) is quite interesting. They see much more of a continuum between humanity and God rather than the terms of utter dis-junction between the two that Protestants tend to think in.

                      Like the Greek gods or various fictional superheroes. There is more difference between God and those mere finite powerful entities than there is between said finite powerful entities and an embryo.
                      Obviously Christians see God as infinitely powerful, but if you want to propose that that is fundamentally different in kind to a Greek god being scaled up, I don't agree.

                      In mathematics we deal with infinities regularly, and the way they are always dealt with is as the limit of something finite scaled up - something of very very large but finite amount provides an excellent model of how the thing of infinite amount behaves. It's called Calculus, and it's a thoroughly established subject now, and the logic of it is very well grounded. Though it was only invented a few hundred years ago so it's totally understandable that Christian theologians writing before the 20th century would have been vague at best on how infinities work, and not understand that they can be modeled well by something very very large.

                      So no, you can't just wave your hands and say "People, God's INFINITE, so all your pathetic human logic doesn't apply, and it's not legitimate to extrapolate from very very powerful to infinite." You'd be wrong. Human logic does deal with infinities, and quite regularly, and yes the correct way to model them is as the limit of something finite extrapolated.

                      God created everything, thus He owns everything including us.
                      That seems bonkers, and also morally offensive.

                      Firstly, 'ownership' is a human social construct. It's not out there in the physics of the universe somewhere. It's not something we've discovered by exploring the natural world and discovered it as a fundamental property of the universe. Instead some of our human societies have found it convenient to say that certain people own certain things. Some societies haven't bothered with this and have held that people have everything in common (e.g. the commune the apostles established in Acts). In a society that chooses to construct the idea of ownership, laws are made up to say that certain people can do certain things with what they 'own' and other people can't, and provides legal enforcement etc. (Libertarian's absurd pretense that the idea of ownership is somehow a fundamental philosophical principle is amusing in that it completely ignores the above reality and history, and very-conveniently-for-them pretends that rich people having property that the poor need to be kept away from is somehow the fundamental philosophical truth in the universe)

                      Among those societies that have constructed the concept of 'ownership' and have laws to enforce it, it's not generally true that people own something just because they create it. No one would say that parents who make a child "own" that child. In fact, the law places on them huge requirements to do things for that child - that they nurture it and see to its upbringing and welfare. In the case of non-sentient creations, "owning the rights to" a thing is very different to creating a thing, and the one doesn't imply the other, as any number of artists and authors who have got into lawsuits with their publishing companies could attest. In the case of inventions, we have constructed the idea of a Patent Office, where people who create things can apply for exclusive ownership of them for a limited time if they wish to do so, but that's not always granted for quite a number of reasons, and when it is granted it's for a limited time. And in the case where I, in my day job, were to create something, I would not have legal ownership of it, the company I work for would have legal ownership of it.

                      In addition to all that, owning a sentient being is called slavery. It is immoral for any number of reasons. And many of those same reasons are why we would never say that parents legally 'owned' their children and would instead say they legally had a 'duty of responsibility' to their children or a legal 'duty of care' for them.

                      So to bring it back to your statement, God cannot "own" people just because he created them, because:
                      - Owning sentient beings is immoral, and something whose validity can be rejected outright in every way.
                      - "Owning" is something that happens in a constructed legal framework within a society. In the context of God creating humanity there is no higher legal framework, and no society in which humanity could be said to be 'his' as opposed to owned by other Gods. So talking about ownership in that context makes no sense at all.
                      - The idea that creating something means you own it is false in general in societies that have constructed the concept of ownership.

                      Also you probably shouldn't criticize me for applying my human idea of great power to God only to yourself turn round and apply you own idea of great ownership to God.
                      "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                      "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                      "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by JimL View Post


                        You are confusing the issue. We don't subjectively believe that a governor with the ability to pardon exists, we know he exists. The question is of subjective belief, not in the knowledgeable rejection of a pardon. Your god pardons you only if you subjectively believe in Jesus as god. If, due to imperfect knowledge you are wrong, or doubt that Jesus is god, as many christians do, then no pardon, correct?
                        If you have never met the governor then you just believe he exists.

                        But that wasn't the point of the analogy. It was that if you reject an offer to be saved, for whatever reason, then you are still being judged on your own actions, not your belief. You were being judged on your actions before you knew of the offer of salvation and after your rejection of it.

                        Way to miss the point.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          If you have never met the governor then you just believe he exists.

                          But that wasn't the point of the analogy. It was that if you reject an offer to be saved, for whatever reason, then you are still being judged on your own actions, not your belief. You were being judged on your actions before you knew of the offer of salvation and after your rejection of it.

                          Way to miss the point.
                          No, you keep missing the point, no one is rejecting a pardon, they are rejecting the belief in a pardoner, in the existence of a god named Jesus. Lets say you end up at the pearly gates and stand before god and so now you know you were mistaken in your disbelief, you now know that Jesus is god, and ask for forgiveness. Do you get pardoned then. Of course not, because the christian doctrine is about faith and the acceptance of a belief, not knowledge of ,and rejection of, a god.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            If you have never met the governor then you just believe he exists.
                            A somewhat nonsensical statement.

                            The existence of a human governor can be attested. Statements, film footage, and photographs may be cross referenced for validity. There is also the existence of personal records.
                            "It ain't necessarily so
                            The things that you're liable
                            To read in the Bible
                            It ain't necessarily so
                            ."

                            Sportin' Life
                            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                              No, you keep missing the point, no one is rejecting a pardon, they are rejecting the belief in a pardoner, in the existence of a god named Jesus. Lets say you end up at the pearly gates and stand before god and so now you know you were mistaken in your disbelief, you now know that Jesus is god, and ask for forgiveness. Do you get pardoned then. Of course not, because the christian doctrine is about faith and the acceptance of a belief, not knowledge of ,and rejection of, a god.
                              It doesn't matter why you reject the pardon, JimL, only that when you do, your execution will be because of your original crimes, just as if you never had a pardon offered to you. You can reject it because you didn't believe in the Governor, because you don't want to be pardoned, or because it is Tuesday and you want to stay for the Tacos. Once you reject the offer, you will be back where you started, being on death row for your ACTIONS.

                              When you die, JimL, you can't argue that you "were mistaken" or "didn't know" because you do know, I and dozens of others have told you. If you don't accept Jesus, then you will be judged on your own actions. You tossed away your pardon willingly. So you must stand trial for your actions.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                                A somewhat nonsensical statement.

                                The existence of a human governor can be attested. Statements, film footage, and photographs may be cross referenced for validity. There is also the existence of personal records.
                                It's an analogy Hypatia.

                                Comment

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