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  • Originally posted by JimL View Post
    If one doesn't believe in god, i.e that Jesus is god, then they are out of the game regardless. Correct or not?
    If you are on death row because you murdered someone, and you are offered a pardon by the governor and you reject it because you don't believe the governor would pardon you, you are still on death row because you murdered someone. You can't blame anyone but yourself for your execution. ...And you are a moron for not believing the governor.
    Last edited by Sparko; 08-11-2020, 02:20 PM.

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    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      If you are on death row because you murdered someone, and you are offered a pardon by the governor and you reject it because you don't believe the governor would pardon you, you are still on death row because you murdered someone. You can't blame anyone but yourself for your execution. ...And you are a moron for not believing the governor.
      A very poor analogy, Sparko. Not believing a pardon was offered is not the same thing as not believing in the existence of the pardoner. No one is rejecting a pardon, they are subjectively rejecting the belief in a pardoner. A governor doesn't base his reason to pardon a criminal on whether or not the criminal believes the governor exists or not.

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      • Originally posted by JimL View Post
        A very poor analogy, Sparko. Not believing a pardon was offered is not the same thing as not believing in the existence of the pardoner. No one is rejecting a pardon, they are subjectively rejecting the belief in a pardoner. A governor doesn't base his reason to pardon a criminal on whether or not the criminal believes the governor exists or not.
        Guard: "Jim, you have a letter from the governor giving you a pardon if only you will accept it and make a public statement that you are sorry for your crime"

        Jim: "Ha! You are full of crap. I don't believe you!"

        Guard: "But all you have to do is accept his offer!"

        Jim: "Get out of here!"

        Two days later is Jim executed for not believing the offer? No, he is executed for committing murder.

        ---------
        Sparko: "Jim, God says he will forgive you if you just accept his offer and ask for forgiveness"

        Jim: "I don't believe you!"

        Sparko: "All you have to do is accept God's offer!"

        Jim: "Get out of here!"

        Jim stands before God and is condemned to hell for not believing? No, he is sent to hell for the sins he committed.

        Perfect analogy. Bigly.

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        • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          Guard: "Jim, you have a letter from the governor giving you a pardon if only you will accept it and make a public statement that you are sorry for your crime"

          Jim: "Ha! You are full of crap. I don't believe you!"

          Guard: "But all you have to do is accept his offer!"

          Jim: "Get out of here!"

          Two days later is Jim executed for not believing the offer? No, he is executed for committing murder.

          ---------
          Sparko: "Jim, God says he will forgive you if you just accept his offer and ask for forgiveness"

          Jim: "I don't believe you!"

          Sparko: "All you have to do is accept God's offer!"

          Jim: "Get out of here!"

          Jim stands before God and is condemned to hell for not believing? No, he is sent to hell for the sins he committed.

          Perfect analogy. Bigly.


          You are confusing the issue. We don't subjectively believe that a governor with the ability to pardon exists, we know he exists. The question is of subjective belief, not in the knowledgeable rejection of a pardon. Your god pardons you only if you subjectively believe in Jesus as god. If, due to imperfect knowledge you are wrong, or doubt that Jesus is god, as many christians do, then no pardon, correct?

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          • And we know God exists. Unless you want to deny what happened about 2000 years ago.
            If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
              And we know God exists. Unless you want to deny what happened about 2000 years ago.
              No, you don't know, you believe. Blessed is he who believes without seeing! But even if you think you know, there are more people in the world who do not know. What you are arguing is that god punishes people for their lack of knowing when knowing is an impossibility. Even christians have their doubts which some admit to while others don't and the reason for their doubt is because they do not know. To assert that you know, is either self deception or outright dishonesty.

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              • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                No, you don't know, you believe. Blessed is he who believes without seeing! But even if you think you know, there are more people in the world who do not know. What you are arguing is that god punishes people for their lack of knowing when knowing is an impossibility. Even christians have their doubts which some admit to while others don't and the reason for their doubt is because they do not know. To assert that you know, is either self deception or outright dishonesty.
                Nope! Babies don't know much at all and they get a free pass to Heaven, but no honor so no killing babies!
                If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                  Nope! Babies don't know much at all and they get a free pass to Heaven, but no honor so no killing babies!
                  This is one of those things that Christians often repeat but that I don't actually see any biblical basis for.
                  "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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                  • Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                    This is one of those things that Christians often repeat but that I don't actually see any biblical basis for.
                    You think babies go to hell? Hell is a place of shame, and babies don't have the mental capacity to have shame or honor.

                    If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                      You think babies go to hell? Hell is a place of shame, and babies don't have the mental capacity to have shame or honor.

                      I'm an annihilationist which basically removes all the emotional sting from the question (and the position does seem to be an emotional one in nature).

                      Scripture does say there is no way other than through Jesus. Perhaps God in His mercy does provide a way to Jesus for babies, but I don't see any affirmative evidence that we can dogmatically say so.
                      "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                        I'm an annihilationist which basically removes all the emotional sting from the question (and the position does seem to be an emotional one in nature).

                        Scripture does say there is no way other than through Jesus. Perhaps God in His mercy does provide a way to Jesus for babies, but I don't see any affirmative evidence that we can dogmatically say so.
                        Eternal nonexistance seems worse than an eternal lower standard of living. It's literally the life in prison vs death penalty argument! And only God knows exaclty what's going to happen.
                        If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                          Eternal nonexistance seems worse than an eternal lower standard of living. It's literally the life in prison vs death penalty argument! And only God knows exaclty what's going to happen.
                          What's better or what's worse doesn't matter. What matters is what the Scriptures say.
                          "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                            Nope! Babies don't know much at all and they get a free pass to Heaven, but no honor so no killing babies!
                            Says who? Besides, those who do have knowledge are no better off than babies unless encompassed in their knowledge is the fact that Jesus is god, and just like you, they do not in fact know that.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                              Says who? Besides, those who do have knowledge are no better off than babies unless encompassed in their knowledge is the fact that Jesus is god, and just like you, they do not in fact know that.
                              They have the cognitive capacity to know that they don't always do the right thing and sometimes do the wrong thing. Babies don't anymore than the rest of the animal kingdom. A dolphin doesn't know it's wrong to kill another dolphin. A chimp wouldn't see anything right or wrong about kidnapping and eating a human baby. No one believes that apes and cetaceans will answer for their actions on Judgement day. So, why would a young human child? Or anyone that never had the intellectual capacity for honor and shame? God, by definition, will do what is just. Much is not revealed about the details because it is none of our business.
                              If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                                They have the cognitive capacity to know that they don't always do the right thing and sometimes do the wrong thing. Babies don't anymore than the rest of the animal kingdom. A dolphin doesn't know it's wrong to kill another dolphin. A chimp wouldn't see anything right or wrong about kidnapping and eating a human baby. No one believes that apes and cetaceans will answer for their actions on Judgement day. So, why would a young human child? Or anyone that never had the intellectual capacity for honor and shame? God, by definition, will do what is just. Much is not revealed about the details because it is none of our business.
                                But, just like you, people don't have the cognitive capacity to know that Jesus is god which is why some people like yourself subjectively believe, and others do not subjectively believe. That's the issue, not babies. And that issue for christians is resolved in that unless one subjectively believes, they lose. That is idiotic.

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