Originally posted by JimL
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Apologetics 301 Guidelines
If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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I - an atheist - have an objective standard for Good
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Last edited by Sparko; 08-11-2020, 02:20 PM.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostIf you are on death row because you murdered someone, and you are offered a pardon by the governor and you reject it because you don't believe the governor would pardon you, you are still on death row because you murdered someone. You can't blame anyone but yourself for your execution. ...And you are a moron for not believing the governor.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostA very poor analogy, Sparko. Not believing a pardon was offered is not the same thing as not believing in the existence of the pardoner. No one is rejecting a pardon, they are subjectively rejecting the belief in a pardoner. A governor doesn't base his reason to pardon a criminal on whether or not the criminal believes the governor exists or not.
Jim: "Ha! You are full of crap. I don't believe you!"
Guard: "But all you have to do is accept his offer!"
Jim: "Get out of here!"
Two days later is Jim executed for not believing the offer? No, he is executed for committing murder.
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Sparko: "Jim, God says he will forgive you if you just accept his offer and ask for forgiveness"
Jim: "I don't believe you!"
Sparko: "All you have to do is accept God's offer!"
Jim: "Get out of here!"
Jim stands before God and is condemned to hell for not believing? No, he is sent to hell for the sins he committed.
Perfect analogy. Bigly.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostGuard: "Jim, you have a letter from the governor giving you a pardon if only you will accept it and make a public statement that you are sorry for your crime"
Jim: "Ha! You are full of crap. I don't believe you!"
Guard: "But all you have to do is accept his offer!"
Jim: "Get out of here!"
Two days later is Jim executed for not believing the offer? No, he is executed for committing murder.
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Sparko: "Jim, God says he will forgive you if you just accept his offer and ask for forgiveness"
Jim: "I don't believe you!"
Sparko: "All you have to do is accept God's offer!"
Jim: "Get out of here!"
Jim stands before God and is condemned to hell for not believing? No, he is sent to hell for the sins he committed.
Perfect analogy. Bigly.
You are confusing the issue. We don't subjectively believe that a governor with the ability to pardon exists, we know he exists. The question is of subjective belief, not in the knowledgeable rejection of a pardon. Your god pardons you only if you subjectively believe in Jesus as god. If, due to imperfect knowledge you are wrong, or doubt that Jesus is god, as many christians do, then no pardon, correct?
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Originally posted by Christianbookworm View PostAnd we know God exists. Unless you want to deny what happened about 2000 years ago.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostNo, you don't know, you believe. Blessed is he who believes without seeing! But even if you think you know, there are more people in the world who do not know. What you are arguing is that god punishes people for their lack of knowing when knowing is an impossibility. Even christians have their doubts which some admit to while others don't and the reason for their doubt is because they do not know. To assert that you know, is either self deception or outright dishonesty.If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!
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Originally posted by Christianbookworm View PostNope! Babies don't know much at all and they get a free pass to Heaven, but no honor so no killing babies!"I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostThis is one of those things that Christians often repeat but that I don't actually see any biblical basis for.
If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!
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Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
Scripture does say there is no way other than through Jesus. Perhaps God in His mercy does provide a way to Jesus for babies, but I don't see any affirmative evidence that we can dogmatically say so."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostI'm an annihilationist which basically removes all the emotional sting from the question (and the position does seem to be an emotional one in nature).
Scripture does say there is no way other than through Jesus. Perhaps God in His mercy does provide a way to Jesus for babies, but I don't see any affirmative evidence that we can dogmatically say so.If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!
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Originally posted by Christianbookworm View PostEternal nonexistance seems worse than an eternal lower standard of living. It's literally the life in prison vs death penalty argument! And only God knows exaclty what's going to happen."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by Christianbookworm View PostNope! Babies don't know much at all and they get a free pass to Heaven, but no honor so no killing babies!
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Originally posted by JimL View PostSays who? Besides, those who do have knowledge are no better off than babies unless encompassed in their knowledge is the fact that Jesus is god, and just like you, they do not in fact know that.If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!
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Originally posted by Christianbookworm View PostThey have the cognitive capacity to know that they don't always do the right thing and sometimes do the wrong thing. Babies don't anymore than the rest of the animal kingdom. A dolphin doesn't know it's wrong to kill another dolphin. A chimp wouldn't see anything right or wrong about kidnapping and eating a human baby. No one believes that apes and cetaceans will answer for their actions on Judgement day. So, why would a young human child? Or anyone that never had the intellectual capacity for honor and shame? God, by definition, will do what is just. Much is not revealed about the details because it is none of our business.
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