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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


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  • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    Each person has to make a personal decision to become a Christian at some point in their life, even those raised in Christian families, who are brought up and taught the evidence.
    That's not true. Most people just continue down the same path, never really giving it much thought - certainly never critically examining what is claimed to be the evidence.

    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    You are also ignoring 2000 years of apologetics and study of Christianity.
    No, I'm not, nor has that anything to do with this subject.
    America - too good to let the conservatives drag it back to 1950.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by JonathanL View Post
      No that's what faith means when clueless internet atheists are asked to give a definition of the word. Faith has never meant "belief despite the absence of evidence" in a religious context, save for in atheistic caricatures or when being given as an answer by Christians who have never bothered doing any serious study in their own faith and what it's doctrines entails.
      Faith has always meant "belief despite the absence of evidence" in a religious context. It's how religionists use it - whenever questioned about something they can't answer, the response is "You just have to have faith" (ie., belief despite the absence of evidence). It's how everybody uses it.

      Again, if 'faith' just means 'belief', why use it? Why not just use 'belief'? Because faith is a particular type of belief; belief despite the absence of evidence.
      America - too good to let the conservatives drag it back to 1950.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Electric Skeptic View Post
        Faith has always meant "belief despite the absence of evidence" in a religious context. It's how religionists use it - whenever questioned about something they can't answer, the response is "You just have to have faith" (ie., belief despite the absence of evidence). It's how everybody uses it.
        As I said, "Christians who have never bothered doing any serious study in their own faith and what it's doctrines entails" might define faith that way. The same people you term "religionists". But faith in a religious context isn't determined by majority usage, but by how the doctrinal texts of the religion (or how a particular denomination, if you're interested in what that specific denomination believes) defines the term.

        And no, it's not how "everybody" uses it, you have absolutely zero basis to make that claim, except for anecdotal experience.


        Originally posted by Electric Skeptic View Post
        Again, if 'faith' just means 'belief', why use it? Why not just use 'belief'? Because faith is a particular type of belief; belief despite the absence of evidence.
        Faith, at least in a Protestantic context, is closer to `trust` rather than belief. Belief comes from faith, but is not equivalent to it.
        ~Formerly known as Chrawnus~

        Comment


        • Originally posted by JonathanL View Post
          As I said, "Christians who have never bothered doing any serious study in their own faith and what it's doctrines entails" might define faith that way. The same people you term "religionists". But faith in a religious context isn't determined by majority usage, but by how the doctrinal texts of the religion (or how a particular denomination, if you're interested in what that specific denomination believes) defines the term.

          And no, it's not how "everybody" uses it, you have absolutely zero basis to make that claim, except for anecdotal experience.




          Faith, at least in a Protestantic context, is closer to `trust` rather than belief. Belief comes from faith, but is not equivalent to it.
          Semantics.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            Each person has to make a personal decision to become a Christian at some point in their life, even those raised in Christian families, who are brought up and taught the evidence.
            No. You are distinguishing between what YOU consider “true Christians” to be and what the majority raised in the Christian West consider themselves to be. If you asked them, they would say “Christian”.
            “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by JimL View Post
              Semantics.
              Not even close.
              ~Formerly known as Chrawnus~

              Comment


              • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                You're ignoring the fact that most all christians were raised as christians, most all muslims were raised as muslims etc etc. The decision is impressed upon them. What you call teaching is actually indoctrination of the young uncritical mind.
                No. You are trying to misrepresent Christianity and how it works. It is based on evidence. A person can't just be raised in it and be a Christian. They have to examine the evidence themselves and make a personal decision to become a Christian.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  No. You are trying to misrepresent Christianity and how it works. It is based on evidence. A person can't just be raised in it and be a Christian. They have to examine the evidence themselves and make a personal decision to become a Christian.
                  Then I suggest that, relatively speaking, there are very few true believers in the world.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    No. You are trying to misrepresent Christianity and how it works. It is based on evidence.
                    No, it's not. No more than is Islam or Buddhism.

                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    A person can't just be raised in it and be a Christian. They have to examine the evidence themselves and make a personal decision to become a Christian.
                    Completely unsupported, both logically and biblically.
                    America - too good to let the conservatives drag it back to 1950.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      No. You are trying to misrepresent Christianity and how it works. It is based on evidence. A person can't just be raised in it and be a Christian. They have to examine the evidence themselves and make a personal decision to become a Christian.
                      The majority of people in so-called Christian societies are merely cultural Christians - just as those in Buddhist or Hindu or Muslim societies have been socially acculturated into the dominant social values of their society.
                      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Electric Skeptic View Post
                        Faith has always meant "belief despite the absence of evidence" in a religious context. It's how religionists use it - whenever questioned about something they can't answer, the response is "You just have to have faith" (ie., belief despite the absence of evidence). It's how everybody uses it.
                        Well it wasn't how I used it when I was a Christian - I viewed the Greek word as meaning "faithfulness" i.e. obedience and perseverance. But I'm an atheist now as I followed the absence of evidence to its logical conclusion.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          Each person has to make a personal decision to become a Christian at some point in their life, even those raised in Christian families, who are brought up and taught the evidence. You are also ignoring 2000 years of apologetics and study of Christianity.
                          Growing up in a community of donut people, raised by donut people, some of them well versed in the science of donut making, I'm impressed by how many instead choose bagels.

                          But not surprised that most still choose donuts.

                          After all, says here their people have been doing donuts for thousands of years.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                            The majority of people in so-called Christian societies are merely cultural Christians - just as those in Buddhist or Hindu or Muslim societies have been socially acculturated into the dominant social values of their society.
                            Correct. Ditto most western secularists like yourself, raised in secular societies.

                            A trivial observation, from which nothing of real significance follows about the truth or otherwise of any of the mentioned beliefs.
                            ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Electric Skeptic View Post
                              No, it's not. No more than is Islam or Buddhism.


                              Completely unsupported, both logically and biblically.
                              Can you cite the Bible passages that you think support your position?
                              ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

                              Comment

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