I - an atheist - have an objective standard for Good

[Sparko]

But, by your logic, if you in good faith do NOT accept Christ then God will still allow you through the pearly gates when you repent upon meeting Jesus. Just as for the same reason, he will allow Christians who in good faith got his objective morality wrong but repent. (e.g. slave owners).

You might want to read the bible reference I gave JimL above. You need to repent in this life and accept Jesus as your savior.

[JimL]

You might want to read the bible reference I gave JimL above. You need to repent in this life and accept Jesus as your savior.

Right, so if the billions of people who either knew nothing of, or didn't believe in your god, off to hell they go. Right? Silly boy.

[Tassman]

You might want to read the bible reference I gave JimL above. You need to repent in this life and accept Jesus as your savior.

You said previously that “you may be forgiven for those sins you commit that you did not know were wrong". Well how about atheists who honestly “did not know were wrong” by disbelieving in God?

[Whateverman]

Denial seems to be your only tactic. Such a shame.

There he goes again, running away from a debate he thinks he's losing.

[Sparko]

Right, so if the billions of people who either knew nothing of, or didn't believe in your god, off to hell they go. Right? Silly boy.

Did they sin? If so, they will be judged on their sin. If they knew they were doing wrong and did it anyway, they will face judgment for it.

If they did not sin or were incapable of understanding right from wrong, they will not go to hell.

Their own conscience will condemn or defend them.

Again:
Romans 1:15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.


But you have no excuse, since you have been told multiple times about sin and salvation, and yet you mock God and his people.

You fall under Romans 1:
28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

[Sparko]

You said previously that “you may be forgiven for those sins you commit that you did not know were wrong". Well how about atheists who honestly “did not know were wrong” by disbelieving in God?

If you don't believe in God then you have to face judgment by yourself for your own sins where you do what you do know is wrong. Can you claim you have never done anything that you knew was wrong at the time? Never told a lie? Never took something that wasn't yours?

God doesn't need to condemn you for things you did that you didn't know was wrong, there is plenty you (and everyone) has done that they did know was wrong. That is why you need Jesus. If he is your Lord, then when you face judgment, your unrighteousness is replaced by Jesus' righteousness.

Romans 3:21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith.

[Sparko]

There he goes again, running away from a debate he thinks he's losing.

so basically you are just Peewee Herman now?



What's next? "I'm rubber, your glue?"

[JimL]

Did they sin? If so, they will be judged on their sin. If they knew they were doing wrong and did it anyway, they will face judgment for it.

If they did not sin or were incapable of understanding right from wrong, they will not go to hell.

Their own conscience will condemn or defend them.

Again:
Romans 1:15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges peopleÂ’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.


But you have no excuse, since you have been told multiple times about sin and salvation, and yet you mock God and his people.

You fall under Romans 1:
28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know GodÂ’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

Eveybody does what ought not be done, Sparko, i.e. they sin. So that has nothing to do with whether they are punished or not. They are punished dependent upon whether they believe in the existence of your god. So Paul is full of crap when he says the above, because believers and non-believers alike are guilty of doing the same. Believing in your god and that he sacrificed himself to himself for your sins is the only requirement for your being saved. People aren't sent to hell according to your belief because they sinned, they're sent to hell because they don't know or believe in the existence of your god.

[Tassman]

If you don't believe in God then you have to face judgment by yourself for your own sins where you do what you do know is wrong. Can you claim you have never done anything that you knew was wrong at the time? Never told a lie? Never took something that wasn't yours?

Your argument was that one is condemned for non-acceptance of Jesus as savior. But, upon confronting Jesus at the pearly gates and accepting him, one is in the same position as Christians who committed sins, they did not know were wrong. Both require equal forgiveness.

God doesn't need to condemn you for things you did that you didn't know was wrong,

Nor does God need to condemn one for not knowing or believing he existed.

there is plenty you (and everyone) has done that they did know was wrong. That is why you need Jesus.

All have fallen sort of the moral standards of a given society, but these have varied greatly in all societies (including Christian ones) over time.

If he is your Lord, then when you face judgment, your unrighteousness is replaced by Jesus' righteousness.

With the best will in the world one cannot manufacture belief when it is not there. Or do you suggest one pretends to have it as a divine insurance plan as per Pascal’s Wager.

[Starlight]

Eveybody does what ought not be done, Sparko, i.e. they sin. So that has nothing to do with whether they are punished or not. They are punished dependent upon whether they believe in the existence of your god. So Paul is full of crap when he says the above, because believers and non-believers alike are guilty of doing the same.

I side with the scholars who think in that section in Romans 1, Paul is quoting his opponents' view, and that Paul then denounces that view in Romans 2. So in that reading, it's not Paul who's full of crap in Romans 1. Paul's view is then given in contrast to this in Romans 2:

Rom 2:
[God] will repay according to each one’s deeds: to those who by patiently doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life... glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good... [When those] who do not possess the law, do instinctively what the law requires... to which their own conscience also bears witness; and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them on the day when, according to my gospel, God, through Jesus Christ, will judge the secret thoughts of all.

This reading is a minority view among interpreters but seems to be gaining more traction.

[JimL]

Did they sin? If so, they will be judged on their sin. If they knew they were doing wrong and did it anyway, they will face judgment for it.

Did you sin? If so will you be judged and punished for your sins or simply rewarded for your belief?
If they did not sin or were incapable of understanding right from wrong, they will not go to hell.
Really, even if they don't believe in your god they won't go to hell?

Their own conscience will condemn or defend them.

But your conscience won't condemn you, correct?
Again:
Romans 1:15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges peopleÂ’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
Right, but only unbelievers are punished. Correct?

But you have no excuse, since you have been told multiple times about sin and salvation, and yet you mock God and his people.

Oh, so I am required to believe whatever you tell me is truth? Do you believe everything you're told, and do you ever find that what you've been told and believed turned out to be false?

You fall under Romans 1:
28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know GodÂ’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

Nonsense! Paul was just another in a long line of Jim Jones's building for himself a cult. As a matter of fact you admitted that you didn't believe yourself for the longest time. What would have happened if you had died before you came to your belief?

[JimL]

I side with the scholars who think in that section in Romans 1, Paul is quoting his opponents' view, and that Paul then denounces that view in Romans 2. So in that reading, it's not Paul who's full of crap in Romans 1. Paul's view is then given in contrast to this in Romans 2:

Rom 2:
[God] will repay according to each one’s deeds: to those who by patiently doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life... glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good... [When those] who do not possess the law, do instinctively what the law requires... to which their own conscience also bears witness; and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them on the day when, according to my gospel, God, through Jesus Christ, will judge the secret thoughts of all.

This reading is a minority view among interpreters but seems to be gaining more traction.

That would make more sense, except for the fact that everyone sins, or breaks the law, whatever, and so, if the above were true, if each is repayed according to their deeds, then all would go to hell. The only way to be saved then, would be to be a believer in Jesus as god.

[Sparko]

Your argument was that one is condemned for non-acceptance of Jesus as savior. But, upon confronting Jesus at the pearly gates and accepting him, one is in the same position as Christians who committed sins, they did not know were wrong. Both require equal forgiveness.

That was never my argument

Nor does God need to condemn one for not knowing or believing he existed.

He doesn't. You are condemned by your own actions.

All have fallen sort of the moral standards of a given society, but these have varied greatly in all societies (including Christian ones) over time.

Yes. So you have no excuse.

With the best will in the world one cannot manufacture belief when it is not there. Or do you suggest one pretends to have it as a divine insurance plan as per Pascal’s Wager.

Belief is always a choice.

[Sparko]

Did you sin? If so will you be judged and punished for your sins or simply rewarded for your belief?

No.

Because

Romans 3:21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,[i] through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

[JimL]

No.

No! No what? No you haven't sinned? No you won't be judged for your sins? Or no, you won't simply be rewarded for your belief?

Because

Romans 3:21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,[i] through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

That's akin to arguing by weblink. So, tell me what you think that means if you are able.