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The reason people reject the resurrection

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  • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    It interesting that in the selection of quotes we were given we find only four respectively from the gospels of Mark and from Matthew and yet fifteen from the gospel of John. I wonder why.
    There are 17 quotes from Mark.

    And 40 from John.

    And 30 from Matthew.

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    • Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
      There are 17 quotes from Mark.

      And 40 from John.

      And 30 from Matthew.
      My search and find tool found four, four, and fifteen.


      You will have to cite them all to demonstrate that.
      "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" Attrib. Seneca 4 BCE - 65 CE

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      • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
        My search and find tool found four, four, and fifteen.


        You will have to cite them all to demonstrate that.
        Here is the list

        https://www.answering-islam.org/Wales/jesus_paul.htm

        Access it; click Control F and count them.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
          Here is the list

          https://www.answering-islam.org/Wales/jesus_paul.htm

          Access it; click Control F and count them.
          Ah we are misunderstanding. I was referring to the quotes actually cited by Trucker. Not the entire list.
          "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" Attrib. Seneca 4 BCE - 65 CE

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
            Ah we are misunderstanding. I was referring to the quotes actually cited by Trucker. Not the entire list.
            There are two lists:

            https://www.answering-islam.org/Wales/jesus_paul.htm

            https://www.answering-islam.org/Wale..._paul_more.htm

            Comment


            • Yes but I was only referring to the quotes that were posted/pasted.
              "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" Attrib. Seneca 4 BCE - 65 CE

              Comment


              • Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                So do you deny the existence of the supernatural? Starting with that assumption, you will accept any natural explanation, such as group hallucinations, however implausible.

                Blessings,
                Lee
                I wouldn't "deny" the existence of the supernatural. I'd just say that I don't have good enough reason to believe there is, or ever was, anything supernatural. Perhaps you do, but your belief isn't a good reason for me to believe.

                And I don't have to accept any particular explanation. Some things are not yet explained, and may never be explained. That doesn't mean they aren't natural.

                If one does accept the existence of the supernatural, I don't see how one can choose between various supernatural explanations, unless one arbitrarily privileges one particular set of explanations, such as those written in a particular book. Perhaps Loki was just fooling around circa 30ad.

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                • Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                  I am reading J. Warner Wallace's "Cold Case Christianity", and was struck by the fact that the one reason people reject the resurrection of Jesus is because of a rejection of the supernatural. Once you allow the possibility of supernatural events, the resurrection of Jesus is the explanation that fits best with the facts:
                  • Jesus died by crucifixion.
                  • The tomb was empty.
                  • Multiple eyewitnesses claim to have seen the resurrected Christ.
                  • The apostles were changed, and died rather than renounce their beliefs.


                  The problem with using the supernatural (whatever is meant by the concept) is, that it is all too easy - unless one defines it very precisely - to use “explanation by the supernatural” as a device for validating whatever needs validating. In such cases, it becomes an apologist’s version of A Wizard Did It.
                  Such a device also risks having no stable content - and ends up being used as an ad hoc device for solving an immediate problem, rather than shedding light on the character of the universe.
                  If the concept is not precisely defined, it also risks being used to account for too much. Which is a disservice to the Christian doctrine of creation.
                  Last edited by Rushing Jaws; 07-29-2020, 03:25 AM.

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                  • Paul's letters themselves prove that Paul did not understand his experience with Jesus as a vision, aka an internal mind event, and that he knew how to distinguish between a vision, as it is understood in modern times, to an appearance of Jesus (see #3). 1 Cor 15:3-8 says:
                    "For I handed on to you as of first importance what I in turn had received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, 4 and that he was buried, and that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers and sisters at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have died. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 8 Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me."

                    1) "He was raised"
                    The greek word used for the resurrection event in 1 Cor 15:4 is egeiro (raised), and according to James Ware:

                    "the Greek verb means to get up or stand up, that is, to raise from a supine to a standing position. Thus the verb is regularly used to denote the raising or rising up of one who has fallen (Matt 12:11; Mark 9:27; Acts 9:8), or of one kneeling or prostrate being raised back to a standing position (Matt 17:7; Luke 11:8; Acts 10:26), or of one sitting who rises to stand (Matt 26:46; Mark 3:3; 10:49; 14:42; Luke 6:8; John 11:29; 13:4; 14:31). The verb is also frequently used of one lying down, very often of one lying sick, who is restored to a standing posture. In resurrection contexts, the verb does not denote that the dead ascend or are assumed somewhere; rather, the verb signifies that the corpse, lying supine in the grave, gets up or arises to stand..."
                    https://hbu.edu/news-and-events/2016...-paul-apostle/

                    Since the phrase for the resurrection event itself indicates that "He" literally stood up into an erect position from a supine position, the implication is that the resurrection of Jesus (and his subsequent appearances, see #2) was understood to be bodily in nature, in accord with the gospel statements.


                    2) "He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve"
                    Since Jesus's resurrection was understood to be physical, this has implications. According to James Ware:

                    "In the ancient formula the verbs have a single subject: ‘Christ died … he was buried … he has been raised … he appeared’ (15.3–5). Since the subject of the first two verbs is Christ in his crucified body of flesh and bones which died (15.3) and was buried (15.4), the syntax of the formula would seem to demand that it is this same body which was raised on the third day (15.4) and was seen by the disciples (15.5).
                    (James P. Ware, The Resurrection of Jesus in the Pre-Pauline Formula of 1 Cor 15.3–5, 2014, p. 482-483)


                    3) "Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me."
                    "Last of all" entails that Jesus stopped appearing to people after Paul's "appearance" as far as he was concerned, yet Paul himself admits that "visions and revelations" of Jesus occurred after the end of the chain in 2 Cor 12:1-5 ( ("I know a person in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know; God knows" [1 Cor 12:2]). Thus, there is a contrast between the internal mind events like we see in 2 Cor 12:1-5 to Jesus "appearing" to the apostles and Paul. The final disproof any theory to the contrary lies in the absence of any citable examples from ancient Greek literature where "last of all," when it culminates a series as it does in 1 Cor 15:5-8, does not mean the very last in the series, excluding further instances.


                    4) 2 Cor 4:6: "For it is the God...who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ."

                    2 Cor 4:6 might well advert to Paul’s foundational vision of Jesus [1], in which Paul sees Jesus as light. Dale C. Allison Jr. writes:

                    "Paul thought of the risen Jesus as having a body of Sofia, one made of light (cf. 2 Cor 4:6). So although we have no access to exactly what Paul saw or thought he saw, we can imagine either that he saw an indistinct or overwhelming light, or alternatively, that his experience was akin to that of the prophet Ezekiel, who beheld creatures of “human form”...in the midst of “a great cloud with brightness around it,” with “fire flashing forth continually” (Ezekiel 1:4-5).
                    (Dale C. Allison Jr., Resurrecting Jesus, p. 265-266)

                    This is verified by Acts. But heavenly beings were understood to have spewed light (Ezek. 10; Dan. 7.9; 10.5-6; Lk. 2.9; Acts 1.10; 2 Cor. 11.14; Rev. 4.4; 10.1; 1 En. 62.15-16; 2 En. 22.8), and for Paul to have seen a light (accompanied by a voice), Jesus is required to have been understood to have been there physically to spew said light.
                    __________________________________________________ ___________________________________
                    [1] Seyoon Kim, The Origin of Paul’s Gospel, WUNT 2/4 (Tübingen: Mohr Siebeck, 1981), 5–13; also Karl Olav Sandnes, Paul, One of the Prophets? A Contribution to the Apostle’s Self-Understanding, WUNT 2/43 (Tübingen: Mohr Siebeck, 1991), 131–46; Udo Schnelle, Apostle Paul: His Life and Theology (Grand Rapids: Baker Academic, 2005), 91 (observing that “from the viewpoint of the history of traditions, the motif of the glory of the chosen one points to a throne room vision [cf. Ezek 1:26, 28; 1 En. 45:1–6; 49:1–4]”).

                    Edit: meant for this to be a reply to Starlight's post on page 2
                    Last edited by Bohrbrain; 09-07-2020, 11:11 AM.

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