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The reason people reject the resurrection

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  • #16
    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Also Muslims and Jews believe in the supernatural and do not believe in the physical Resurrection of Jesus/
    The main reason is they would have to go from being Muslim or Jew to Christian. The reason they do not know is their ignorance of the correct understanding of the good news of unmerited favor only offered through the Christian faith I dare say you do not understand why it must be true.
    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by 37818 View Post
      The main reason is they would have to go from being Muslim or Jew to Christian. The reason they do not know is their ignorance of the correct understanding of the good news of unmerited favor only offered through the Christian faith I dare say you do not understand why it must be true.
      I am responding the erroneous assertion in circular reasoning of the thread proposal that those that believed in the 'supernatural' the evidence is conclusive that based on the claim of evidence' they would believe. You are confirming this that if they converted to Christianity they would believe. As Jews and Musims, and other religions as well that believe in the supernatural, the evidence claimed is not sufficient for a reason to believe in a physical Resurrection.
      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

      go with the flow the river knows . . .

      Frank

      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
        I am responding the erroneous assertion in circular reasoning of the thread proposal that those that believed in the 'supernatural' the evidence is conclusive that based on the claim of evidence' they would believe. You are confirming this that if they converted to Christianity they would believe. As Jews and Musims, and other religions as well that believe in the supernatural, the evidence claimed is not sufficient for a reason to believe in a physical Resurrection.
        The suppostion that the evidence is not sufficient does not make it so. There is historically an actual date for the New Testament events. Islam is contingent on Christianity. Christianity is contingent on Judaism. And based on 70AD distruction of the Jewish temple, if Christianity is not true, an argument can be made Judaism is not true.
        Last edited by 37818; 05-25-2020, 12:35 PM.
        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by 37818 View Post
          The suppostion that the evidence is not sufficient does not make it so.
          As per the topic of the thread it is only sufficient evidence for those that believe it is whether is so nor not so.

          There is historically an actual date for the New Testament events.
          No there is not.

          Islam is contingent on Christianity. Christianity is contingent on Judaism. And based on 70AD distruction of the Jewish temple,
          Judaism is not contingent of Christianity nor the belief in the physical resurrection of Jesus Christ. Other religions are not contingent on the belief of the physical resurrection of Jesus Christ.Not contingent on


          if Christianity is not true, an argument can be made Judaism is not true.
          An easy argument can be made that all Theistic religions are not true.
          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

          go with the flow the river knows . . .

          Frank

          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

          Comment


          • #20
            I notice all of the posts complaining about the facts, are nothing but conjecture with no evidence at all. strange.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
              As per the topic of the thread it is only sufficient evidence for those that believe it is . . .
              What a stellar discovery. Evidence is only sufficient for those that are persuaded by it? What other gems of insight do you have to share with us?

              People die when they are killed?

              The archer class is really made up of archers?

              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
              An easy argument can be made that all Theistic religions are not true.
              Well, yes, obviously not all theistic religions can be true at the same time, since many of them are exclusionary in nature.

              And if you're saying that an easy argument can be made that any theistic religion is not true, then I think it's more accurate to say that an easily dismissed argument can be made that any theistic religion is not true.
              Last edited by JonathanL; 05-26-2020, 10:30 AM.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                There is historically an actual date for the New Testament events.
                No there is not.
                So am I to understand there is no such thing as the Jewish obervance of the Passover and unleavened bread? Mark 14:12, Exodus 12:18. A Jewish Calendar, https://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/calendar/
                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  I notice all of the posts complaining about the facts, are nothing but conjecture with no evidence at all. strange.
                  Actually - I thought BP's response was clear and based on facts. It appears that most of the claims made about the resurrection are themselves "conjecture," a discussion I was having with Seer for a while, until he "abandoned ship."
                  The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                  I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                    Actually - I thought BP's response was clear and based on facts. It appears that most of the claims made about the resurrection are themselves "conjecture," a discussion I was having with Seer for a while, until he "abandoned ship."
                    No, they are based on people actually witnessing the events, which is evidence. You can claim you don't believe the evidence, but it is there. Merely conjecturing that they might have done this, or might have done that, is just guessing without any evidence at all.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      No, they are based on people actually witnessing the events, which is evidence.
                      Again - this is conjecture. What you have in the NT is a report ABOUT people witnessing the events, which is not evidence from the actual witnesses. We do not know that the authors are themselves witnesses because, in many cases, we do not know who the authors actually are.

                      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      You can claim you don't believe the evidence, but it is there.
                      Actually, I have not said this. As with my discussion with Seer, what I have actually said is that the historical claims made about Jesus of Nazareth do not have adequate support to sustain the claim "these things happened." That is specific to the miracles, the quoted words of Jesus, and the details of daily activity.

                      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      Merely conjecturing that they might have done this, or might have done that, is just guessing without any evidence at all.
                      That is pretty much my point: anyone who claims "I know what happened" cannot support that claim, whether they are believing the NT claims to be true or believing them to be false. At best, we end up with "we don't know." What we have in the NT is a presumably accurate reflection of what the community that arose after Jesus died believed at the time of the writing of the texts. Since the earliest dates to at least 20 years after Jesus' death, and the latest to as much as 70 years after, we are seeing the beliefs of a community that has had time to consider, reflect, develop a philosophy and theology, and apparently admitted many new members who would, in turn, very likely impact the beliefs of the group.
                      Last edited by carpedm9587; 05-26-2020, 03:00 PM.
                      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        No, they are based on people actually witnessing the events, which is evidence. You can claim you don't believe the evidence, but it is there. Merely conjecturing that they might have done this, or might have done that, is just guessing without any evidence at all.
                        Not really. It's based on someone decades later alleging that some people at the time acually witnessed the event.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by JimL View Post
                          Not really. It's based on someone decades later alleging that some people at the time acually witnessed the event.
                          decades of transmission.jpg

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                            Again - this is conjecture. What you have in the NT is a report ABOUT people witnessing the events, which is not evidence from the actual witnesses. We do not know that the authors are themselves witnesses because, in many cases, we do not know who the authors actually are.
                            if you don't believe that it is eye witness testimony (or gathered by someone who interviewed eye witnesses in the case of Luke) then that is your prerogative, but if you want to claim that, you would need actual evidence to the contrary. Not just dismissing it.


                            Actually, I have not said this. As with my discussion with Seer, what I have actually said is that the historical claims made about Jesus of Nazareth do not have adequate support to sustain the claim "these things happened." That is specific to the miracles, the quoted words of Jesus, and the details of daily activity.
                            The "you" in my comment was a generic "you" applicable to those who have done so in this thread.


                            That is pretty much my point: anyone who claims "I know what happened" cannot support that claim, whether they are believing the NT claims to be true or believing them to be false. At best, we end up with "we don't know." What we have in the NT is a presumably accurate reflection of what the community that arose after Jesus died believed at the time of the writing of the texts. Since the earliest dates to at least 20 years after Jesus' death, and the latest to as much as 70 years after, we are seeing the beliefs of a community that has had time to consider, reflect, develop a philosophy and theology, and apparently admitted many new members who would, in turn, very likely impact the beliefs of the group.
                            The people who wrote the gospels can indeed claim to "know what happened" - they were there. Again, you can personally dismiss their writings, but if you are just replacing it with mere conjecture like "maybe they were on drugs" or "maybe they couldn't find the right grave" or similar, then you are just using conjecture without evidence to dismiss eye-witness testimony. Your conjecture holds less water than the writing do. Again "generic you"

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by JimL View Post
                              Not really. It's based on someone decades later alleging that some people at the time acually witnessed the event.
                              That is a great example of the "conjecture" I was referring to. Thank you Jim. You never disappoint.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                That is a great example of the "conjecture" I was referring to. Thank you Jim. You never disappoint.
                                Conjecture Sparko, is what we are all doing. We just disagree as to our conclusions.

                                Comment

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