What Is Man?

[seer]

If human beings need to decide, then that is an answer to my question, isn't it?

No, I don't believe it is human beings who decide man's worth, because if it is then there is no way to decide who is objectively correct. My point all along, which you understood from the beginning, that if men decide then their opinions are completely subjective. You view of man's worth is no more correct or valid than let's say the Nazis or Communists. There is no way out of this relativism if atheism is correct. And you know that Doug.

[seer]

Your argument is steeped in emotion. So your worldview makes you feel purposeful and meaningful. It's the same approach that Rick Warren takes, and you see how well that worked for him.

I learned with my Christian wife that this approach doesn't work. Eventually you screw up and expose your weaknesses (like making jokes about people you want to go to hell). Just be a good person and try to relieve suffering as best as you can. That's the most effective approach--not this BS about purpose and meaning. Heck, people can just counter with equally emotional arguments about dead human zygotes (what's their purpose?) and the endemic suffering of the world which has existed since life has existed.

Just be a good person and express your Christianity by actualizing your love everyday. When my wife transitioned from bad apologist (who, BTW, cheated on me) to expressing her Christianity through good works, then I took notice. I'm even considering becoming a liberal Christian (like Pete Enns) as a result. Everything to the right of that approach is hollow and self righteous, and you ain't fooling anybody but the most gullible.

That's nice wag... BTW - there is zero emotion involved (perhaps for you, but don't project that on me). It is simply what logically flows from different worldviews.

[NormATive]

Yes, He had a glorified body (like we will all get). And he wasn't a bloody mess anymore as He was after the Crucifixion. But Jesus is still Jesus, I will be me, and you you. We are not going changed into different people with different memories and life experiences. If I am not resurrected then who is?

I don't know. What does your Bible tell you? Oh, nothing? You are only guessing. I thought Biblical TRUTH was important to you. Only bad, evil agnostics like me speculate.

the Wikipedia piece references the studies. You just don't like the conclusion.

So, you can't provide any reliable proof of your slander. That's what I thought.

I mean really, how many straight bath houses do you know of?

Uh, ever heard of a Mikveh? Ever been to Japan? Ever been to Greece? Ever been to Scandinavia? Public bathing is all over the world. You should try it sometime.

Well good, then in your world having 500 partners in a lifetime is no big deal. Why accuse me of slander then?

I accuse you of slander because that is what you are trying to do to homosexuals. You just can't come to grips with the fact that homsexuals are just like you. They live, love, have relationships, remain faithful and care for their spouses - JUST LIKE YOU. You want to make them out to be monsters so you can feel good about condemning them.

You are a liar Norm, and the truth is not in you. I never claimed that I was superior, even though my worldview is - clearly.

Any worldview that encourages its adherents to develop arrogant, boastful attitudes is clearly NOT superior. Why you think that you are superior to everyone else is truly fascinating.

Was man created for a purpose Norm? Does he have inherent worth? How? Based on what?

We have worth if we make ourselves worthy.

NORM

[seer]

I don't know. What does your Bible tell you? Oh, nothing? You are only guessing. I thought Biblical TRUTH was important to you. Only bad, evil agnostics like me speculate.

Norm, after the resurrection we all stand before God to give account for the things we did in the body, both good and evil. Are we different people then? Am I not myself giving an account for things that I did? Or am I Joe or Frank, giving account for things I never did?

So, you can't provide any reliable proof of your slander. That's what I thought.

I already gave you the link and the studies are referenced in the link. If you can refute the referenced studies, feel free.

Here is a interview with Dr. Bell of the Bell and Weinberg study, that was quoted in the first link:

http://www.people.com/people/archive...072072,00.html

Question: Didn't your study reveal that 40 percent of the homosexual men claimed to have had more than 500 partners?

Answer: Yes, but don't leap to the conclusion that the kinds and numbers of partners homosexuals have indicates an unhappy state. Among the cruisers, we found no psychological misfits.

Uh, ever heard of a Mikveh? Ever been to Japan? Ever been to Greece? Ever been to Scandinavia? Public bathing is all over the world. You should try it sometime.

So there are wanton sexual relations in these bath houses like the gay bath houses? Have you ever read the book "And the Band Played On" by Randy Shilts? Why were they trying to close the gay bath houses in the early eighties? Besides Norm in your world promiscuity is a good thing, if done right.

I accuse you of slander because that is what you are trying to do to homosexuals. You just can't come to grips with the fact that homsexuals are just like you. They live, love, have relationships, remain faithful and care for their spouses - JUST LIKE YOU. You want to make them out to be monsters so you can feel good about condemning them.

I just claimed that gay men were more promiscuous, than straight men.. Which they are. There is little difference between gay and straight women.

Any worldview that encourages its adherents to develop arrogant, boastful attitudes is clearly NOT superior. Why you think that you are superior to everyone else is truly fascinating.

Ok, I have a worldview that tells me that all men are created equal and loved by God, and are His image bearers, and therefore it follows that I must consider myself superior to my fellow man. Your unbelief has really made you irrational Norm.

We have worth if we make ourselves worthy.

So I guess someone born with Downs does not have much of a chance to "make" himself "worthy." But that was not what I was asking Norm,

[Doug Shaver]

No, I don't believe it is human beings who decide man's worth,

I did not ask you who decides man's worth. I don't think you're paying much attention to anything I'm posting here.

[seer]

I did not ask you who decides man's worth. I don't think you're paying much attention to anything I'm posting here.

That is the very question we are deciding, worth as it relates to equality. Whether we are speaking of worth or equality makes no difference. The question remains. I say God alone decides these things. So who do you say decides these questions?

[NormATive]

Norm, after the resurrection we all stand before God to give account for the things we did in the body, both good and evil. Are we different people then? Am I not myself giving an account for things that I did? Or am I Joe or Frank, giving account for things I never did?

Speculation again. Scripture, please.

I already gave you the link and the studies are referenced in the link. If you can refute the referenced studies, feel free.

Here is a interview with Dr. Bell of the Bell and Weinberg study, that was quoted in the first link:

http://www.people.com/people/archive...072072,00.html

How about something from this decade? That article was from 1978 (when dominant secular and religious culture was against homosexuality) - and from People Magazine! C'mon Seer, you can do better than that.

So there are wanton sexual relations in these bath houses like the gay bath houses? Have you ever read the book "And the Band Played On" by Randy Shilts? Why were they trying to close the gay bath houses in the early eighties? Besides Norm in your world promiscuity is a good thing, if done right.

I get it. You are against gay people. In your mind, homosexuals are nothing but promiscuous, immoral, evil people. Nothing could be further from the truth. You have to go way back to the 70s and 80s to find information to fit your ancient worldview.

I just claimed that gay men were more promiscuous, than straight men.. Which they are. There is little difference between gay and straight women.

Prove it - from a RELIABLE source, not People Magazine published in 1978.

Ok, I have a worldview that tells me that all men are created equal and loved by God, and are His image bearers, and therefore it follows that I must consider myself superior to my fellow man. Your unbelief has really made you irrational Norm.

What unbelief? You don't know what I believe. You just THINK you do.

So I guess someone born with Downs does not have much of a chance to "make" himself "worthy." But that was not what I was asking Norm,

If you can't find worth in a Downs Syndrome person, I feel truly sorry for you and everyone who has to come in contact with you. I have a brother with Downs Syndrome. Like my gay friends, they are misunderstood and people like you think they are somehow "damaged." This is the problem with calling everything you don't understand "sin." Downs Syndrome is not a sin, as your Christian Shamans once taught. It's just the way that particular person developed. Just like the gay person - they were born that way. It isn't because of sin.

NORM

[Doug Shaver]

The question remains.

You asked the question. I asked you to clarify it. You have refused to do so.

[JonathanL]

If you can't find worth in a Downs Syndrome person, I feel truly sorry for you and everyone who has to come in contact with you. I have a brother with Downs Syndrome. Like my gay friends, they are misunderstood and people like you think they are somehow "damaged." This is the problem with calling everything you don't understand "sin." Downs Syndrome is not a sin, as your Christian Shamans once taught. It's just the way that particular person developed. Just like the gay person - they were born that way. It isn't because of sin.

NORM

You're better than this, Norm...

No wait, you aren't, who am I kidding? Oh well, carry on with your mischaracterization and distortion of seer and his standpoint then. Obviously you prefer doing that instead of actually engaging with his position.

[Jedidiah]

If you can't find worth in a Downs Syndrome person, I feel truly sorry for you and everyone who has to come in contact with you. I have a brother with Downs Syndrome.

If you would learn to read what is written you would have noticed that Seer was being sarcastic. People with Downs are of worth, not because you see it, but because God made them that way. No one, least of all Seer, is claiming that Downs is sin. You trying to equate Downs with homosexuality is the only place sin comes into the picture.

[Tassman]

That is the very question we are deciding, worth as it relates to equality. Whether we are speaking of worth or equality makes no difference. The question remains. I say God alone decides these things. So who do you say decides these questions?

You can say that the invisible pink unicorn in all its wisdom "decides these things" for all the difference it makes; there’s no substantiated evidence for either.

Who actually decides these things are the members of the community, based on what best sustains well-being and social cohesion. This is the yardstick, not the perceived laws of a deity, which cannot be agreed upon in any case - even by those who believe in such a deity.

In times past the perceived will of the Judeo/Christian God encompassed things like apartheid, slavery, the subjugation of women and discrimination against gays. In actuality "God's will" merely consisted of society claiming a divine imprimatur for whatever they themselves wanted to do. Just as you are doing with your blatant discrimination against gays. It's not your homophobic bigotry is it seer? It's God's will - right?!

Most probably, if you'd been around in the 19th century, you would have supported slavery as God's will, as the Southern Baptist Convention did. OR in the mid 20th century supported miscegenation for the same reason, namely "God alone has decided these things".

[seer]

Speculation again. Scripture, please.

It is not speculation Norm. When I'm resurrected and give account for my deeds to God - who is that Norm? Me or someone else?

How about something from this decade? That article was from 1978 (when dominant secular and religious culture was against homosexuality) - and from People Magazine! C'mon Seer, you can do better than that.

It doesn't matter Norm, as far as I know the Bell and Weinberg study was the most comprehensive study done on the issue. If you have a more comprehensive study please link it. And it is not "People" magazine per-se it is about the interview with Dr. Bell. And remember Bell and Weinberg were working with the Kinsey Institute - hardly a bastion for religious or cultural bias.

I get it. You are against gay people. In your mind, homosexuals are nothing but promiscuous, immoral, evil people. Nothing could be further from the truth. You have to go way back to the 70s and 80s to find information to fit your ancient worldview.

Really Norm? I have know personally a number of gay women who were in committed relationships (life long). Actually family members. Two of them were baby sitting my granddaughter just last week end. And have been to my house many times. This has not been the case for most of the gay guys I have known - most of them were rather promiscuous.

What unbelief? You don't know what I believe. You just THINK you do.

Well you are obviously irrational. Not sure what caused it though - perhaps the fact that you turned your back on your Creator. Sin will have that effect.

If you can't find worth in a Downs Syndrome person, I feel truly sorry for you and everyone who has to come in contact with you. I have a brother with Downs Syndrome. Like my gay friends, they are misunderstood and people like you think they are somehow "damaged." This is the problem with calling everything you don't understand "sin." Downs Syndrome is not a sin, as your Christian Shamans once taught. It's just the way that particular person developed. Just like the gay person - they were born that way. It isn't because of sin.

NORM

Come on Norm. You are the one who said it is what we DO that make us worthy. So now you are changing your tune. And BTW Norm I worked with the mentally handicapped (including those with Downs) for ten years as a Group Home manager. So spare me your sanctimonious outrage. Talk about feeling superior! You are guilty of the very same thing you accused me of.

[seer]

You asked the question. I asked you to clarify it. You have refused to do so.

Well Doug, to be honest, you lost me.

[Doug Shaver]

Well Doug, to be honest, you lost me.

This exchange began when I said:

I believe all men are morally equal because none of their inequalities is morally relevant. Why shouldn't I believe that? What is it about a godless universe that would preclude moral equality?

and you responded:

Ok, now if some one or some group didn't agree with this how do we decide who is correct?

I then asked you: Who needs to make that decision? Are you saying that you don't understand that question?

[seer]

I then asked you: Who needs to make that decision? Are you saying that you don't understand that question?

No Doug I said if "we" (humans) alone make these decisions then how can you know who is objectively correct? If your view for instance clashes with someone else view, then in an objective sense, how do we decide which opinion is correct. And you need to stop pretending that you don't understand the question or point. Because you do and we both know it.