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Infinite regress.

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    What I am saying is that we, as temporal beings, really don't have the capacity of understanding what an eternal being is like. It would be like you trying to imagine a 6-dimensional object and all you know is 3 dimensions (4 if you include time)
    Not quite. Unlike that of a 6 dimensional object, we have an understanding of both time and eternity. An Eternal and active being that is timeless on the other hand is an assertion that contradicts logic. Perhaps that is why we have no capacity to understand it.
    Trying to ask questions like "what was God's first thought" is basically the same thing. You are asking in terms of time (first, last, etc) when there is no time without God having created it in our universe. You are thinking of eternity as some Meta-time that is still time that contains our time. Like a nested Russian doll.
    Yes, and since we don't understand time, in its meta-time form say, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist as such. You are just making assertions of times non-existence within the eternal, but are giving no explanation as to how the eternal acts in no-time.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by JimL View Post
      Not quite. Unlike that of a 6 dimensional object, we have an understanding of both time and eternity. An Eternal and active being that is timeless on the other hand is an assertion that contradicts logic. Perhaps that is why we have no capacity to understand it.
      so what does a 6-dimensional square look like?

      Explain how an eternal timeless active being defies logic? You are defining "action" as happening in time.

      Let me ask you a question. In the big bang theory, time and space did not exist before the singularity exploded. So how did the universe form if there was no space to expand into, and no time. If there was no time then how did it become "active?"


      Yes, and since we don't understand time, in its meta-time form say, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist as such. You are just making assertions of times non-existence within the eternal, but are giving no explanation as to how the eternal acts in no-time.
      I am not just making assertions. I am arguing based on the presumption that the God of the bible is real, and created all time and space. You are using that same presumption to ask questions like "what was God's first thought" - if we don't start within an agreed upon set of presumptions, then this whole thread is just nonsense. We are both saying "IF God is as the bible says, an eternal being who created both time and space, then...."

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by JimL View Post
        First off, we don't even know how to define "time" accurately, or if there is even such a thing as time, . . .
        Originally posted by JimL View Post
        Unlike that of a 6 dimensional object, we have an understanding of both time and eternity.
        No comment.
        Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
          No comment.
          EGGzackly
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
            So no first creation?
            Actually this is the view of the Baha'i Faith, Creation, yes, but no first Creation.
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              so what does a 6-dimensional square look like?
              I don't know. That was my point. We don't have an understanding of a 6 dimensional object, but we do have an understanding of time in the sense that we experience it.
              Explain how an eternal timeless active being defies logic? You are defining "action" as happening in time.
              Action, the only action that we have any knowledge of, takes place in time, and so an eternal timeless being that is also active would be no more than an assertion with no logical explanation. But if you have an explanation as to how that works I would love to hear and understand it.
              Let me ask you a question. In the big bang theory, time and space did not exist before the singularity exploded. So how did the universe form if there was no space to expand into, and no time. If there was no time then how did it become "active?"
              Thats a good question Sparko. Doesn't make sense to me either. Perhaps the assertion that we sometimes make, i.e. that there was no time or space before the inflation of our particular spacetime, is wrong.



              I am not just making assertions. I am arguing based on the presumption that the God of the bible is real, and created all time and space.
              Assertion, Presuposition, whatever you want to call it, you still give no explanation for how the eternal being is both active and timeless, other than the assertion and presuposition of course.
              You are using that same presumption to ask questions like "what was God's first thought"
              No I am not, I do not presume that the God of the Bible, or any God, is real, or that such an eternal being created all time and space. You presume that to be the fact, I am only assuming the same for the sake of argument.
              - if we don't start within an agreed upon set of presumptions, then this whole thread is just nonsense. We are both saying "IF God is as the bible says, an eternal being who created both time and space, then...."
              But, I do agree with your presupposition, in so far as that is what you hold to, but I don't accept that the presuposition that you hold to has any logical support to it. Thats what I'm asking for, If God is timeless, then what other term would you use to describe his actions.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                No comment.
                Cherry picking does not an argument make Jed. We understand time in the way that we experience it, but we don't know how to define it in and of itself.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                  Actually this is the view of the Baha'i Faith, Creation, yes, but no first Creation.
                  And just out of curiosity, does Baha'i have an explanation for that Shunya?

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by JimL View Post
                    Cherry picking does not an argument make Jed. We understand time in the way that we experience it, but we don't know how to define it in and of itself.
                    But here's a START!

                    Source: dictionary.com


                    time
                    noun
                    1. the system of those sequential relations that any event has to any other, as past, present, or future; indefinite and continuous duration regarded as that in which events succeed one another.
                    2. duration regarded as belonging to the present life as distinct from the life to come or from eternity; finite duration.
                    3. ( sometimes initial capital letter ) a system or method of measuring or reckoning the passage of time: mean time; apparent time; Greenwich Time.
                    4. a limited period or interval, as between two successive events: a long time.
                    5. a particular period considered as distinct from other periods: Youth is the best time of life.

                    © Copyright Original Source



                    You're welcome!
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by JimL View Post
                      And just out of curiosity, does Baha'i have an explanation for that Shunya?
                      Of course not, God and Creation cannot be explained from the human perspective. The belief is yes, God Creates, ie our universe, but Creation has no first event. One analogy is that Creation is like a mirror image of God. Creation(s) have always existed as God exists. It is possible multiverses represent Creations infinite in number and extant within a greater cosmos of infinite extant. All events of Creation are caused within a greater infinite Creation.

                      Source: (Bahá'u'lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, LXXXII, p. 162-163)

                      As to thy question whether the physical world is subject to any limitations, know thou that the comprehension of this matter dependeth upon the observer himself. In one sense, it is limited; in another, it is exalted beyond all limitations. The one true God hath everlastingly existed, and will everlastingly continue to exist. His creation, likewise, hath had no beginning, and will have no end. All that is created, however, is preceded by a cause. This fact, in itself, establisheth, beyond the shadow of a doubt, the unity of the Creator.

                      © Copyright Original Source



                      Again. it must be realized that 'Infinite Regress' is a human construct of an infinity described as a series of events or human devised units of time that occur within a greater time construct, which may be infinite or finite. Also, ALL our concepts of infinities are constructs of our math used as tools to describe our physical existence, and not the defined nature of this physical existence.
                      Last edited by shunyadragon; 05-18-2014, 07:43 AM.
                      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                      go with the flow the river knows . . .

                      Frank

                      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                        The belief is yes, God Creates, ie our universe, but Creation has no first event. One analogy is that Creation is like a mirror image of God. Creation(s) have always existed as God exists.
                        "All that is created, however, is preceded by a cause." So the universe has a cause?
                        Last edited by seer; 05-18-2014, 07:30 AM.
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by JimL View Post
                          So would you define the nature of God, i.e the nature of his mind as fixed and determined.
                          Determined implies that something external to God makes him what he is. God is completely undetermined, whatever He is, He is by Himself alone.

                          Was Gods idea to create the universe 14 billion years ago eternally fixed in the mind of God?
                          Yes.

                          It would seem by your description that God has no thoughts, that he is thoughtless and determined by his own nature which I think would be just as an apt description of the natural world, no? Pure act, perfect in itself, timeless in itself, and determined in itself.
                          God has a mind, at least by analogy we can say its more like a mind than anything else we could compare it to. However its not a thinking mind in any sense of our minds.

                          This has more to do with what you conceive thoughts to be; to you a thought is (I'm guessing about your beliefs here) something that goes from one moment to the other, an ongoing stream in your mind.

                          The natural world doesn't have all perfections, its changing, something that changes is always only a subset of what it can be... otherwise it would everything at once. For instance I'm sitting right now, typing out this message, I could also be outside moving the lawn, or running, or singing for a bit, or flicking through youtube. Imagine all the infinitely many things I can occupy... I don't possess all of that at once. Its the same with minds, the greater the mind the greater an idea it can hold in its head at once. With really great things we can only hold a bit of it at a time in our mind, constantly moving to various aspects of it. If we were clever enough the whole thing could be seen at once.

                          God is more like that, his mind is just one vision spanning everything, leaving nothing out. He doesn't have to think, whatever realisation it is, He already has it.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by JimL View Post
                            I don't know. That was my point. We don't have an understanding of a 6 dimensional object, but we do have an understanding of time in the sense that we experience it.
                            actually you don't have an understanding of time. You have an experience of what time is, but you don't know what it is. That became abundantly clear a few years ago when you were claiming that if you many light years from earth and you walked toward earth, you would move into the future and if you walked away from the earth you would move into the past. That was one of the dumbest things I have ever read. You don't have any kind of understanding of space, or time, or relativity. Yet you think you know enough to even ask questions about an eternal being. right.

                            Action, the only action that we have any knowledge of, takes place in time, and so an eternal timeless being that is also active would be no more than an assertion with no logical explanation. But if you have an explanation as to how that works I would love to hear and understand it.
                            There you go, "the only action we have any knowledge of" --- which you actually mean "the only action I have EXPERIENCE of"


                            Thats a good question Sparko. Doesn't make sense to me either. Perhaps the assertion that we sometimes make, i.e. that there was no time or space before the inflation of our particular spacetime, is wrong.
                            Or you just are not intelligent enough to understand quantum physics. You know... there ARE a lot of things you just don't understand. That doesn't make them wrong. It makes YOU wrong.



                            Assertion, Presuposition, whatever you want to call it, you still give no explanation for how the eternal being is both active and timeless, other than the assertion and presuposition of course.
                            here is an example, but it is NOT how God is. Just how something can be active and eternal and timeless the way YOU think of eternal timelessness.

                            Imagine a desk supporting a book on it. That is an action isn't it? If it were not supporting the book it would not be where it is. It would be on the ground.

                            Now imagine it has eternally supported that book and there is no time. There you have an eternal timeless action.

                            No I am not, I do not presume that the God of the Bible, or any God, is real, or that such an eternal being created all time and space. You presume that to be the fact, I am only assuming the same for the sake of argument.
                            If you were not talking about the God of Christianity, an eternal being who created time and space, then who were you asking your question to and who where you asking it about?
                            Originally posted by JimL in the OP
                            Did God have a first thought?


                            But, I do agree with your presupposition, in so far as that is what you hold to, but I don't accept that the presuposition that you hold to has any logical support to it. Thats what I'm asking for, If God is timeless, then what other term would you use to describe his actions.
                            You seem to have a very hard time grasping logic. THAT was what I was saying when I said we are using a common presupposition in this debate. We are both talking about the Christian God and are arguing within the framework of that definition. But as soon as someone shows you are wrong about that, you try to jump to another presumption and framework. You are committing a genetic fallacy.

                            It is like we are debating Oranges and when someone shows you that you are wrong about something you claimed about oranges you suddenly make a claim like "Well SOME apples can be eaten green and still be ripe!"

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                              Of course not, God and Creation cannot be explained from the human perspective. The belief is yes, God Creates, ie our universe, but Creation has no first event. One analogy is that Creation is like a mirror image of God. Creation(s) have always existed as God exists. It is possible multiverses represent Creations infinite in number and extant within a greater cosmos of infinite extant. All events of Creation are caused within a greater infinite Creation.

                              Source: (Bahá'u'lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, LXXXII, p. 162-163)

                              As to thy question whether the physical world is subject to any limitations, know thou that the comprehension of this matter dependeth upon the observer himself. In one sense, it is limited; in another, it is exalted beyond all limitations. The one true God hath everlastingly existed, and will everlastingly continue to exist. His creation, likewise, hath had no beginning, and will have no end. All that is created, however, is preceded by a cause. This fact, in itself, establisheth, beyond the shadow of a doubt, the unity of the Creator.

                              © Copyright Original Source



                              Again. it must be realized that 'Infinite Regress' is a human construct of an infinity described as a series of events or human devised units of time that occur within a greater time construct, which may be infinite or finite. Also, ALL our concepts of infinities are constructs of our math used as tools to describe our physical existence, and not the defined nature of this physical existence.
                              Perhaps the reason then that God and creation ex nihilo can't be explained from the human perspective is because the notion of God and creation ex nihilo is itself an incorrect notion. The explanation you give above doesn't even necessitate a Creator beyond or outside of the Cosmos itself.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by seer View Post
                                "All that is created, however, is preceded by a cause." So the universe has a cause?
                                All that is created ex nihilo would need be preceded by a cause true, but if the creator and the created are of one and the same substance then the one didn't really create the other, the whole doesn't create its parts.

                                Comment

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