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  • #76
    After many years of searching, I have finally acquired a copy of John Day's God's Conflict with the Dragon and the Sea. This is one of the most quoted books and one of the hardest to find regarding this topic. Excited!
    Last edited by showmeproof; 06-15-2015, 07:51 PM. Reason: add info

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by showmeproof View Post
      After many years of searching, I have finally acquired a copy of John Day's God's Conflict with the Dragon and the Sea. This is one of the most quoted books and one of the hardest to find regarding this topic. Excited!
      congratulations!! Looking forward to any insight you acquire from this book.
      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

      go with the flow the river knows . . .

      Frank

      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

      Comment


      • #78
        showmeproof, is it true that the name Israel was named after El (Isra-El) the Canaanite deity?

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by Rodney View Post
          showmeproof, is it true that the name Israel was named after El (Isra-El) the Canaanite deity?
          While SMP could give you a better response, the answer is clearly "yes, but ..."

          El of Isra'el descends from the Ugaritic El just as the Hebrew Elohim descends from the Ugaritic 'lm. So yes, but ... I haven't seen any evidence that the Ugaritic El was ever worshiped in Isra'el after it became a nation. There are place names that suggest this, such as Bethel, but these could have been named prior to the birth of Isra'el itself, which could also be carried over from a place name. By the time Israel appeared as a nation, El had been supplanted by his divine descendants, and his divine council, the 'lm, had become a singular entity, the Elohim, identified and worshiped as the god of Isra'el.

          I think El's inclusion in the name, Isra'el, is an anachronism, carried over from a time when the cult of El was much more prominent.

          I look forward to any correction.

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
            While SMP could give you a better response, the answer is clearly "yes, but ..."

            El of Isra'el descends from the Ugaritic El just as the Hebrew Elohim descends from the Ugaritic 'lm. So yes, but ... I haven't seen any evidence that the Ugaritic El was ever worshiped in Isra'el after it became a nation. There are place names that suggest this, such as Bethel, but these could have been named prior to the birth of Isra'el itself, which could also be carried over from a place name. By the time Israel appeared as a nation, El had been supplanted by his divine descendants, and his divine council, the 'lm, had become a singular entity, the Elohim, identified and worshiped as the god of Isra'el.

            I think El's inclusion in the name, Isra'el, is an anachronism, carried over from a time when the cult of El was much more prominent.

            I look forward to any correction.
            I would not really distinguish 'el and 'lim as separate roots; the later is probably simply a plural form of the first, ie, God, gods, great ones.
            βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
            ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

            אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by robrecht View Post
              I would not really distinguish 'el and 'lim as separate roots; the later is probably simply a plural form of the first, ie, God, gods, great ones.
              Thank you for that, and I agree. But I hadn't intended to suggest separate roots, but rather separate usages, and especially in the case of the early Israelites, a convergence between them. The Ugaritic 'il and 'ilm differentiate between the singular god El and a plural assemblage, whereas the Hebrew Elohim of the Bible is surely singular. I could elaborate that 'ilm is not the most common Ugaritic construction when speaking of divine assemblages.
              Apart from the expression "meeting of the gods ('dr 'ilm), which is confined to one section of Kitta (1.15 II 7, 11), the terminology for the general assembly invoves the root, *phr. [lao tzu: add a double vowel-point on "h" here.]

              Mark Smith, The Origins of Biblical Monotheism, Part 1, The Structures of Divinity, Chapter 2, The Divine Council

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
                While SMP could give you a better response, the answer is clearly "yes, but ..."

                El of Isra'el descends from the Ugaritic El just as the Hebrew Elohim descends from the Ugaritic 'lm. So yes, but ... I haven't seen any evidence that the Ugaritic El was ever worshiped in Isra'el after it became a nation. There are place names that suggest this, such as Bethel, but these could have been named prior to the birth of Isra'el itself, which could also be carried over from a place name. By the time Israel appeared as a nation, El had been supplanted by his divine descendants, and his divine council, the 'lm, had become a singular entity, the Elohim, identified and worshiped as the god of Isra'el.

                I think El's inclusion in the name, Isra'el, is an anachronism, carried over from a time when the cult of El was much more prominent.

                I look forward to any correction.
                Thanks! Yeah, I've been doing some Googling. You sure can learn a lot from the Google Book previews! Found this interesting bit of info.

                "Of the thirty-three theophoric names from the period of the Judges attested for the areas of Manasseh, Ephraim and Benjamin, only seven refer to Yahweh as god; sixteen have the name El as theophoric element; and ten contain a reference to other gods, most notably Baal (Jerubbal, Judges 6:32; Ishbaal, 2 Samuel 2:8). Though the sample is admittedly small IT CONTAINS THE UNMISTAKABLE SUGGESTION THAT THE WORSHIP OF YAHWEH......WAS THE RELIGION OF A MINORITY OF THE POPULATION. The majority of the earliest Israelites (or proto-Israelites) were devoted to a god they referred to in their personal names as el. Though the noun el is occasionally used as a generic designation, it functions mostly as a proper name in texts from the Late Bronze and the Early Iron Ages. A similar observation is valid in respect to the term baal "lord". In view of the historical context of the names it must be assumed that important groups of the early Israelites worshipped the gods El and Baal."
                https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...page&q&f=false

                "The occurrence of El toponyms is hardly surprising in view of the prominence of the god in theophoric personal names. Unlike the Baal toponyms, the El toponyms are not specifically Israelite. Most of them are pre-Israelite. They were simply maintained in the early Israelite period, which suggests, also in view of the El anthroponyms, religious continuity in the worship of El on the part of the early Israelites. The complete absence of the name Yahweh from the Early Iron Age toponyms is striking. Since theological considerations fail to explain this fact, IT MUST BE TAKEN AS A REFLECTION OF THE RELATIVE UNIMPORTANCE OF THE WORSHIP OF YAHWEH AMONG THE EARLY ISRAELITES." http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=V...page&q&f=false

                Comment


                • #83
                  Just curious Rodney, were you using the handle OT in the other thread on this topic?

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                    Just curious Rodney, were you using the handle OT in the other thread on this topic?
                    Sorry I don't understand what you mean...

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      It is hypothesized that the toponym Israel is indeed an indication of the original god of the people of the same name. Mark S. Smith flat out states it, "The Original god of Israel was El." (Early History of God pg 32).

                      Other biblical indications that this is the case is Exodus 6:2-3. Where Yahweh is telling Moses that he wasn't known by Yahweh amongst the Patriarchs, but rather El-Shaddai.

                      Deuteronomy 32: 7-9 gives us much the same picture
                      "Remember the days of old, consider the years long past; ask your father, and he will inform you; your elders, and they will tell you. When El-Elyon apportioned the nations, when he divided humankind, he fixed the boundaries of the peoples according to the number of the gods; Yahweh's portion was his people, Jacob his allotted share." The LXX and the 4QDeut read "sons of god" whereas the MT reads sons of Israel.

                      El could indeed be a common noun meaning 'god,' but it is clear that the characteristics of El the Canaanite god are retained in the figure of Yahweh. Even Richard Hess the conservative biblical scholar from Denver Theological Seminary admits this.

                      The lack of a polemic of EL the Canaanite god in the bible is another indication. One can argue, "no they just borrowed the name to one-up," but even if they had they still did not attack the Canaanite El in the Bible. They saved their polemics for Baal.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Other example include the name of the altar at Shechem

                        El-Elohim-Israel this could be generic god The God of Israel, but this is unlikely. Jeffery Tigay's study of names in Israel during the monarchy indicates that 557 had the theophoric indicating yahweh, 77 indicated EL, and a handful indicated Baal. This is consistent with Yahweh having been already identified with EL by the time of the early monarchy.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
                          Thank you for that, and I agree. But I hadn't intended to suggest separate roots, but rather separate usages ...
                          Sorry, I actually was not sure whether you were considering them to be separate roots and should have said so.

                          Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
                          ... separate usages and especially in the case of the early Israelites, a convergence between them. The Ugaritic 'il and 'ilm differentiate between the singular god El and a plural assemblage, whereas the Hebrew Elohim of the Bible is surely singular. I could elaborate that 'ilm is not the most common Ugaritic construction when speaking of divine assemblages.
                          Apart from the expression "meeting of the gods ('dr 'ilm), which is confined to one section of Kitta (1.15 II 7, 11), the terminology for the general assembly invoves the root, *phr. [lao tzu: add a double vowel-point on "h" here.]

                          Mark Smith, The Origins of Biblical Monotheism, Part 1, The Structures of Divinity, Chapter 2, The Divine Council
                          'Elohim is indeed singular in many respects, but there are some indications of plurality as well, eg, the so-called royal we, 'Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness ... ' and the royal court of the divine beings. From the beginnings of Christianity, the various pluralities found in the Jewish Scriptures were exploited as prefiguring the divinity of Christ or the Trinity. That is not my point here, but rather a more basic one, ie, that monotheism has a very rich history that is sometimes obscured. One of my favorite Jewish theologians even speaks of the incarnation of God in Judaism. The fundamental view of God as in some way plural and relational, if only in relation to his own creation, or in relation to him- and her-self is very profound. In this way, the early Israelites were still very much related to the religious imaginations of their preceding and contemporary neighboring tribes and civilizations.
                          βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                          ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                          אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            I am bringing up this thread because of its relevance to the thread 'pagan origins of Judaism.'
                            Last edited by shunyadragon; 02-06-2016, 01:16 PM.
                            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                            go with the flow the river knows . . .

                            Frank

                            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by showmeproof View Post
                              Good Sources on the Topic. I will add more as I read more.

                              Barton, John and Francesca Stavrakopoulou. Religious Divesity in Ancient Israel and Judah. New York: T&T Clark International, 2010
                              Batto, Benard F., Roberts, K., eds. David and Zion: Biblical Studies in Honor of J.J. Roberts. Eisenbrauns, 2004.
                              Batto, Bernard F. Slaying the Dragon: Mythmaking in the Biblical Tradition. Louisville: Westminster/John Knox Press, 1992.
                              Bellah, R. Religion in Human Evolution: From the Paleolithic to the Axial Age. Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 2011.
                              Burnett, J. Reassessment of the Biblical Elohim. Atlanta: Society of Biblical Literature, 2001.
                              Clifford, Richard J. The Cosmic Mountain in Canaan and the Old Testament. Eugene: Wipf and Stock Publishers, 1972.
                              Collins, Adela Yarbro and John J. Collins. King and Messiah as Son of God. Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 2008.
                              Collins, Adela Yarbro. The Combat Myth in the Book of Revelation. Eugene: Wipf and Stock Publishers, 1976
                              Collins, John J. The Apocalyptic Imagination. Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1998.
                              Coogan, M. and Smith, Mark S. Stories from Ancient Canaan Second Ed. Louisville: Westminister John Knox Press, 2012.
                              Coogan, M. ed. The Oxford History of the Biblical World. New York: Oxford University Press, 1998.
                              Cross, F.M. Canaanite Myth and Hebrew Epic. Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1997.
                              Day, J. Yahweh and the Gods and Goddesses of Canaan. New York: Sheffield Academic Press, 2000, 2002.
                              De Moore, J. C. The Rise of Yahwism The Roots of Israelite Monotheism Second Ed. Leuven: Leuven University Press, 1997.
                              Dever, W.G. Who were the Israelites and Where Did They Come From. Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 2003
                              Dever, W.G. What did the Writers of the Bible Know and When did They Know it?. Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 2001.
                              Dothan, Trude and Moshe. People of the Sea the Search of the Philistines. New York: Macmillan, 1992.
                              Finkelstein, I. and Silberman. The Bible Unearthed. New York: Free Press, 2001.
                              Fishbane, M. Biblical Myth & Rabbinic Mythmaking. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2003.
                              Forsyth, N. The Old Enemy: Satan & The Combat Myth. Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1987.
                              Friedman, Richard E. The Bible with Sources Revealed. New York: HarpersCollins, 2003.
                              Hamilton, G. Origins of the West Semitic Alphabet in Egyptian Script. Catholic Biblical Quarterly, 2006
                              Hess, Richard S. Israelite Religions an Archaeological and Biblical Survey. Grand Rapids: Baker Academic, 2007.
                              Keel, Othmar and Uehlinger, K. Gods, Goddesses and Images of God in Ancient Israel. Herder Verlag: Fribourg, 1998.
                              Kirsch, J. God Against the Gods. New York: Penguin Group, 2004.
                              Levenson, Jon D. Creation and the Persistence of Evil: The Jewish Drama of Divine Omnipotene. New York: Harper & Row Publsihers, 1988
                              Levenson, Jon D. Inheriting Abraham. Princeton: Princeton University Press, 2012.
                              Levenson, Jon D. Sinai & Zion: An Entry inot the Jewish Bible. New York: HarpersCollins; 1985.
                              Levenson, Jon D. The Death and Resurrection of the Beloved Son: The Transformation of Child Sacrifice in Judaism and Christanity. New Haven: Yale University Press, 1993
                              Malamat, A. Mari and the Early Israelite Experience The Schweich Lectures 1984. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1992.
                              Mowinckel, S. He That Cometh. Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 2005
                              Pardee, D. Ritual and Cult at Ugarit. Writings From the Ancient World. Atlanta: Society of Biblical Literature, 2002.
                              Pardee, D. The Ugaritic Texts and the Origin of West-Semitic Literary Composition. New York: Oxford University Press, 2012
                              Pritchard, James B. ed., The Ancient Near East: An Anthology of Texts & Pictures. Princeton: Princeton University Press, 2011.
                              Redford, Donald B. Egypt Canaan and Israel in Ancient Times. Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1992.
                              Smith, Mark S. God in Translation: Deities in Cross-Cultural Discourse in the Biblical World. Grand Rapids: Wm B Eerdmans Publsishing, 2008.
                              Smith, Mark S. The Early History of God Yahweh and the Other Deities in Ancient Israel 2nd ed. San Francisco: HarpersCollins, 1990, 2002.
                              Smith, Mark S. The Origins of Biblical Monotheism Israels Polytheistic Background and the Ugaritic Texts. New York: Oxford University Press, 2001.
                              Smith, Mark S. Untold Stories. Peabody: Hendrickson Publishers, Inc., 2001.
                              Tigay, Jeffery H. Thou Shall Have No Other Gods: Israelite Religion in the Light of Hebrew Inscriptions. Harvard University, 1986.
                              Tov, E. Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible 2nd Revised Ed. Minneapolis: Ausburg Fortress, 1992, 2001.
                              van der Toorn, K., Becking, B. and van der Horst P. The Dictionary of Deities and Demons in the Bible 2nd Extensively Revised Ed. Leiden: Brill Academic Publishers, 1995, 1999.
                              Van Seters The Hyksos: A New Investigation
                              Watson, Rebecca S. Chaos Uncreated. Berlin: De Gruyter, 2005
                              Wright, R. The Evolution of God. New York: Little, Brown and Co., 2009.
                              Yon, M. The City of Ugarit at Tell Ras Shamra. Wiona Lake: Eisenbrauns, 2006.
                              Zevit, Z. The Religions of Ancient Israel A Synthesis of Parallactic Approaches. New York: Continuum, 2001.
                              Bibliography.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                I believe the broader evolution of what is today called Judaism involves the Sumerians, Babylonians, Canaanites, and the Ugarit from the East, and Egypt in the Southwest.as far as the evolution of the written text. The evolution of the cultural context within the Hebrew/Canaanite/Ugarit parallels this going back to oral traditions. Hebrews, and the Ugarit evolved from Canaanite tribes. The Hebrew language evolved a Canaanite Hebrew language. By the evidence Judaism evolved from Canaanite/Ugarit polytheism to monotheism.

                                I have collected some interesting old threads and references on the subject I may share.

                                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                                Frank

                                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                                Comment

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