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Who raised Jesus from the dead?

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  • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
    There's not a single example anywhere on earth during it's entire history of the bolded having been demonstrated.
    Well it is demonstrably true that brain trauma or dementia can severely impact the mind. Therefore, the obvious corollary is that the very existence of the mind depends upon the existence of the brain. Hence destroy the brain and you destroy the mind. There is no evidence to the contrary other than anecdotal accounts of NDE’s or religious mythology.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Tassmoron View Post
      Well it is demonstrably true that brain trauma or dementia can severely impact the mind.
      That only demonstrates that there appears to be a link between the mind and the brain. It doesn't tell us what that link is. Is the brain the source of the mind, or merely the conduit? Science can't answer that question.

      Originally posted by Tassmoron View Post
      Therefore, the obvious corollary is that the very existence of the mind depends upon the existence of the brain. Hence destroy the brain and you destroy the mind.
      You're begging the question based on unstated metaphysical assumptions.
      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
      Than a fool in the eyes of God


      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
        The very ascription of one entity being a god/man is a logical contradiction in and of itself.
        That's yet to be demonstrated.

        Originally posted by Tassman View Post
        Yes, it does: “Hypostatic union (from the Greek: ὑπόστασις hypóstasis, "sediment, foundation, substance, subsistence") is a technical term in Christian theology employed in mainstream Christology to describe the union of Christ's humanity and divinity in one hypostasis, or individual existence”. Lewis Sperry Chafer, Systematic Theology. 1947 – cited Wiki

        The most basic explanation for the hypostatic union is Jesus Christ being both God and man is both perfectly divine and perfectly human at one and the same time.
        No, it doesn't. You can't even get the most basic facts about the hypostatic union correct and you're delusional enough to think that you can show that the concept involves a logical contradiction?

        Two different natures in one hypostasis or individual existence is not the same thing as one entity simultaneously being two different entities. If we're going to use an analogy (without stretching it too far) it's probably closer to the dual-nature of light.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
          Well it is demonstrably true that brain trauma or dementia can severely impact the mind.
          It's demonstrably true that brain trauma or dementia can severly impact behaviour. How much the mind itself is affected remains somewhat of a mystery.

          Originally posted by Tassman View Post
          Therefore, the obvious corollary is that the very existence of the mind depends upon the existence of the brain.
          No, the obvious corollary is that you're desperate for the existence of the mind to be dependent upon the existence of the brain, so you're willing to stretch the data to say something it doesn't.

          Originally posted by Tassman View Post
          Hence destroy the brain and you destroy the mind. There is no evidence to the contrary other than anecdotal accounts of NDE’s or religious mythology.
          "Anecdotal accounts of NDE's or religious mythology" is already far more than what you have for your position.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
            Out of curiosity, would you ask a Hindu to commit suicide to prove his belief in reincarnation, or do you reserve that sort of idiocy only for debates with Christians?
            No - I would never ask anyone to commit suicide. That is why I structured the challenge specifically to avoid that outcome.
            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
              Suppose for a moment that I actually went through with your moronic experiment. Regardless of what the outcome would be it wouldn't come even close to demonstrating one way or the other whether or not the brain is the source of the mind. It would tell us that there is a link, a relationship, between the mind and the brain, but not that the existence of one depends on the existence of the other.

              You don't have any evidence that the mind is dependent upon the brain for it's existence. What you have is a belief that the mind is dependent on the brain for it's existence, evidence that there is some kind of relationship between the brain and the mind, and a willingness to stretch that evidence to make it say far more than what is justified.
              Actually - we have ages of evidence, Chrawnus. What we lack is definitive proof. But then science never offers definitive proof. That is not how science works. But we have tons of experience of brain with no mind - and no known experience of mind with no brain. We see the difference in "mind" from the crudest of brains to the most developed (currently thought to be the human brain). We have tons of experimental data on the links between the operation of the brain - changes in the brain - and impacts on "mind." The evidence is compelling. It will never rise to the level of "definitive proof," but no science ever rises to that level.

              It is into this gap that the philosopher and theologian slip in and provide their "absolute" answers. They know that science cannot make such absolute statements. Science cannot even say, "mnd before brain is 100% impossible. Hence my "moronic experiment." I find that what people ACTUALLY believe sometimes comes out best when you suggest that they actually act on their CLAIMED beliefs. Take the belief to it's logical consequence. After all - if mind precedes brain, and you truly believe that, then your mind is unaffected by modifications made to your brain. You will blithely continue on. Indeed - you will perhaps even continue on freed from the physiological constraints brain apparently places on mind.

              Yes - it is a tongue in cheek experiment. I don't expect anyone to do it. But I don't expect anyone to do it because, despite the claims to the contrary, I think most of us know that mind arises with brain. It clearly transcends brain - but it is not separate and distinct from it - and it cannot exist without it. The latter is a statement of belief, based on the evidence and my own experience. No question about it. But those beliefs are consistent with my actions and choices.
              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

              Comment


              • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                I find that what people ACTUALLY believe sometimes comes out best when you suggest that they actually act on their CLAIMED beliefs.
                "He won't agree that lobotomizing himself, even as a 'thought experiment', is a reasonable course of action; therefore, he doesn't really believe that the mind exists separate from the brain" is a really stupid conclusion for you to reach. I believe that my consciousness will continue even after my brain ceases to function, but that doesn't mean I want to artificially speed up that process.
                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                  "He won't agree that lobotomizing himself, even as a 'thought experiment', is a reasonable course of action; therefore, he doesn't really believe that the mind exists separate from the brain" is a really stupid conclusion for you to reach. I believe that my consciousness will continue even after my brain ceases to function, but that doesn't mean I want to artificially speed up that process.
                  No one said you have to, MM. You keep thinking that I am advocating for you to commit suicide. I was very clear about that. The frontal cortex is associated with higher brain function (reason/thought/etc.). If mind is prior to brain - "adjusting it" will not kill you, and will not affect your mind. Your mind is not dependent on it. And given how our society provides care for those who cannot externally exhibit mind, it would bring a number of other associated benefits. And, after all, the "body" is the seat of corruption, is it not? So reducing dependency on it should be a net benefit, no?
                  The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                  I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                    No one said you have to, MM. You keep thinking that I am advocating for you to commit suicide.
                    No, I said that what you're asking is effectively suicide. As far as my life on earth is concerned, there would be no difference between a lobotomy, and killing myself.

                    Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                    I was very clear about that. The frontal cortex is associated with higher brain function (reason/thought/etc.). If mind is prior to brain - "adjusting it" will not kill you, and will not affect your mind. Your mind is not dependent on it. And given how our society provides care for those who cannot externally exhibit mind, it would bring a number of other associated benefits. And, after all, the "body" is the seat of corruption, is it not? So reducing dependency on it should be a net benefit, no?
                    Are you really this stupid? Or are you just trolling now? Asking for a friend.
                    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                    Than a fool in the eyes of God


                    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                      Actually - we have ages of evidence, Chrawnus. What we lack is definitive proof. But then science never offers definitive proof. That is not how science works. But we have tons of experience of brain with no mind - and no known experience of mind with no brain. We see the difference in "mind" from the crudest of brains to the most developed (currently thought to be the human brain). We have tons of experimental data on the links between the operation of the brain - changes in the brain - and impacts on "mind." The evidence is compelling. It will never rise to the level of "definitive proof," but no science ever rises to that level.
                      We have ages of evidence for a relationship between the mind and the brain. We have zero evidence for the claim that the mind is dependent upon the brain for it's existence.

                      Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                      It is into this gap that the philosopher and theologian slip in and provide their "absolute" answers. They know that science cannot make such absolute statements. Science cannot even say, "mnd before brain is 100% impossible. Hence my "moronic experiment." I find that what people ACTUALLY believe sometimes comes out best when you suggest that they actually act on their CLAIMED beliefs. Take the belief to it's logical consequence. After all - if mind precedes brain, and you truly believe that, then your mind is unaffected by modifications made to your brain. You will blithely continue on. Indeed - you will perhaps even continue on freed from the physiological constraints brain apparently places on mind.
                      My belief that the mind is not dependent on the brain for it's existence does not lead to the logical consequence that my mind is unaffected by modification made to my brain. Your "thought experiment" is stupid beyond belief and doesn't nothing to demonstrate the truth of either position. Your mischaracterization of the work of philosophers and theologians on this issue is also noted.

                      Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                      Yes - it is a tongue in cheek experiment. I don't expect anyone to do it. But I don't expect anyone to do it because, despite the claims to the contrary, I think most of us know that mind arises with brain. It clearly transcends brain - but it is not separate and distinct from it - and it cannot exist without it. The latter is a statement of belief, based on the evidence and my own experience. No question about it. But those beliefs are consistent with my actions and choices.
                      Well, no. Most of us don't know that at all, actually. You believe that mind arises with brain, but the evidence you have for that belief is far from persuasive for anyone who isn't already predisposed towards that belief. And my beliefs that my mind is not dependent on my brain is no less consistent with my actions and choices than yours are.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                        We have ages of evidence for a relationship between the mind and the brain. We have zero evidence for the claim that the mind is dependent upon the brain for it's existence.
                        Again - we have no "proof" - we have a great deal of evidence. Indeed - a very compelling piece of evidence, for me, is the one I cited: vast experience of brain with no mind - and no experience of mind with no brain.

                        Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                        My belief that the mind is not dependent on the brain for it's existence does not lead to the logical consequence that my mind is unaffected by modification made to my brain. Your "thought experiment" is stupid beyond belief and doesn't nothing to demonstrate the truth of either position. Your mischaracterization of the work of philosophers and theologians on this issue is also noted.
                        There's no argument here for me to respond to.

                        Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                        Well, no. Most of us don't know that at all, actually. You believe that mind arises with brain, but the evidence you have for that belief is far from persuasive for anyone who isn't already predisposed towards that belief.
                        You do know that I was once "predisposed" to Christian beliefs, right? I always find this rejoinder a little amusing, given that I moved away from Christianity on the basis of the evidence, not because I was "predisposed to the beliefs."

                        Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                        And my beliefs that my mind is not dependent on my brain is no less consistent with my actions and choices than yours are.
                        On that we will have to disagree. I can think of no rational basis for living your life in such a way as to protect your brain if the very seat of your self - your mind - does not depend upon it.
                        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                          No, I said that what you're asking is effectively suicide. As far as my life on earth is concerned, there would be no difference between a lobotomy, and killing myself.
                          I know that, MM - but the position is not consistent with your belief that your mind is independent of your brain and does not require it. You can meet the obligation of not committing suicide by preserving the function of the brain stem. Indeed, I didn't even suggest destroying a significant part of the brain. A lobotomy would keep you perfectly functional, day-to-day. There are people throughout history that have been lobotomized and went on to live their lives to a healthy old age. And if the mind is independent of the brain - then it should have no impact on mind. So why not?

                          Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                          Or are you just trolling now? Asking for a friend.
                          No - I'm not trolling. I am actually making a point. In my own life, I know there is something awry with what I claim to be my beliefs when those beliefs do not align with what I actually do. That is what I see among many philosophers/theologians. I used the example before of the philosopher who argues for the insubstantiality of the walls, and then leaves by way of the door. That is the kind of useless philosophy/theology I was talking about. This mind/brain discussion strikes me as being of the same ilk, hence my observation.

                          But I think this discussion has indeed run its course...
                          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                            ...the position is not consistent with your belief that your mind is independent of your brain and does not require it.
                            No, carpe, it's not inconsistent at all, any more than it would be inconsistent for a Hindu to not want to hasten his own death despite his belief in reincarnation. You're burning heaps of straw and mistaking it for a clever argument.
                            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                            Than a fool in the eyes of God


                            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                              No, carpe, it's not inconsistent at all, any more than it would be inconsistent for a Hindu to not want to hasten his own death despite his belief in reincarnation. You're burning heaps of straw and mistaking it for a clever argument.
                              As you wish. Note, however, that the Hindu reincarnation is actually rooted in the nature of their life in this incarnation. If it wasn't - then they too would be behaving inconsistently. Because each cycle in Hinduism is influenced by the prior cycle - there is no inconsistency in maximizing the current life.

                              The brain/mind discussion does not have that escape.
                              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                              Comment


                              • And you think the God of Christianity would approve of someone actualizing your ridiculous "thought experiment"? Your argument on this point is so absurd that I have to believe you really are trolling despite your protestations to the contrary.
                                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                                Comment

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