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  • Sparko
    replied
    Originally posted by JimL View Post
    If that's what you got out of what I've been saying then you are not paying attention. My point was never that the whole idea was illogical because god doesn't exist, gods existence had nothing to do with my argument. Apparently you weren't following.
    Then please explain what was illogical about my explanation, from a Christian point of view.

    Leave a comment:


  • JimL
    replied
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    JimL everything I said does make sense from the Christian point of view. IF you assume there is a God, then it is entirely logical and for the reasons I proposed. If you are just going to counter that God doesn't exist so it is illogical then you have just gone off the rails.
    If that's what you got out of what I've been saying then you are not paying attention. My point was never that the whole idea was illogical because god doesn't exist, gods existence had nothing to do with my argument. Apparently you weren't following.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sparko
    replied
    Originally posted by JimL View Post
    The christian point of view concerning the afterlife is what is being questioned in the first place. My point is that the christian perspective regarding the crucible of earth, and the heavenly afterlife, is not logical, doesn't make sense. What you are suggesting is that I just need to accept this christian perspective simply because it is what christians believe, logic be damned.

    No, it would be like you asking atheists where is the logic in their belief that when they die, they no longer exist. I think even you can understand the logic behind that belief without the need of me giving you a long drawn out contrived explanation..

    Not at all.

    --


    I fail to see how that answers to my point. Most people who have ever lived, or live, knew, or know, nothing about your god. Therefore they didn't, don't, believe in your god, which means, according to your religion, they go to hell, however you define hell, as you all interpret that differently as well.
    JimL everything I said does make sense from the Christian point of view. IF you assume there is a God, then it is entirely logical and for the reasons I proposed. If you are just going to counter that God doesn't exist so it is illogical then you have just gone off the rails.

    Leave a comment:


  • JimL
    replied
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    I asked you to show me how my explanation was illogical from a Christian point of view. You deriding Theism and Christianity in general totally missed the point. If you want to know how "heaven works" in Christianity you must accept Christianity as true at least for the sake of the argument. Coming back with "well Christianity is silly and God doesn't exist" after you ask a Christian how Heaven works in Christianity is not only disingenuous, but idiot.
    The christian point of view concerning the afterlife is what is being questioned in the first place. My point is that the christian perspective regarding the crucible of earth, and the heavenly afterlife, is not logical, doesn't make sense. What you are suggesting is that I just need to accept this christian perspective simply because it is what christians believe, logic be damned.
    It be like me asking you what do Atheists think happens to them after death and you say "we cease to exist and rot in the ground" and I said "That's illogical, Your spirit would spend eternity in hell!" - In order to have a conversation I would need to accept atheism as true for the sake of the argument.
    No, it would be like you asking atheists where is the logic in their belief that when they die, they no longer exist. I think even you can understand the logic behind that belief without the need of me giving you a long drawn out contrived explanation..
    That is what you are doing here.
    Not at all.

    --
    as for your comment about people coming to Christ at different points in their life, Jesus said this:

    Matthew 20:20 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard. 2 He agreed to pay them a denarius[a] for the day and sent them into his vineyard.
    3 “About nine in the morning he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4 He told them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.’ 5 So they went.
    “He went out again about noon and about three in the afternoon and did the same thing. 6 About five in the afternoon he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?’
    7 “‘Because no one has hired us,’ they answered.
    “He said to them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard.’

    8 “When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.’
    9 “The workers who were hired about five in the afternoon came and each received a denarius. 10 So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11 When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12 ‘These who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’
    13 “But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? 14 Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15 Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’

    16 “So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”
    I fail to see how that answers to my point. Most people who have ever lived, or live, knew, or know, nothing about your god. Therefore they didn't, don't, believe in your god, which means, according to your religion, they go to hell, however you define hell, as you all interpret that differently as well.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sparko
    replied
    Originally posted by JimL View Post
    Well, the whole idea is rather silly when you come right down to it. Billions of people, both past and present, knew or know, barely nothing of chrisianity, just as most christians knew or know barely nothing of other religions, so the whole idea of christianity itself doesn't make sense. But specific to the issue, there are many problems. Life spans vary, giving advantage to those who live long enough to experience enough of life to make reasoned choices. A 12 year old might die never hearing a thing about christianity, while another may not have learned about it until they were 30 and lived another 60 years mulling it over. So, it would be unjust for one thing. Also, some people, after honestly mulling it over, just wouldn't come to the same conclusion as you regarding the truth of Christianity to which your response is "well then, they made their choice so to hell they go. That is just silly. And to think that people would consciously choose to go to a hellish place rather than a heavenly place, for eternity, is also silly. But in the end, the idea that god has to both change you, erase your sin nature, and remove temptation from you, makes the whole crucible idea illogical. I just don't think that you are thinking very deeply about what that means.
    I asked you to show me how my explanation was illogical from a Christian point of view. You deriding Theism and Christianity in general totally missed the point. If you want to know how "heaven works" in Christianity you must accept Christianity as true at least for the sake of the argument. Coming back with "well Christianity is silly and God doesn't exist" after you ask a Christian how Heaven works in Christianity is not only disingenuous, but idiot.

    It be like me asking you what do Atheists think happens to them after death and you say "we cease to exist and rot in the ground" and I said "That's illogical, Your spirit would spend eternity in hell!" - In order to have a conversation I would need to accept atheism as true for the sake of the argument.

    That is what you are doing here.


    --
    as for your comment about people coming to Christ at different points in their life, Jesus said this:

    Matthew 20:20 For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard. 2 He agreed to pay them a denarius[a] for the day and sent them into his vineyard.
    3 About nine in the morning he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4 He told them, You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right. 5 So they went.
    He went out again about noon and about three in the afternoon and did the same thing. 6 About five in the afternoon he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?
    7 Because no one has hired us, they answered.
    He said to them, You also go and work in my vineyard.

    8 When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.
    9 The workers who were hired about five in the afternoon came and each received a denarius. 10 So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11 When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12 These who were hired last worked only one hour, they said, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.
    13 But he answered one of them, I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didnt you agree to work for a denarius? 14 Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15 Dont I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?

    16 So the last will be first, and the first will be last.
    Last edited by Sparko; 11-30-2018, 10:04 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Tassman
    replied
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
    Jimmy's question in the OP necessarily presupposes that the Christian worldview is true even if only for the sake of argument.
    No, Jim's question assumed that you presuppose the Christian worldview is true. Jim was querying it.

    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
    I like the theory that we will all spend eternity in God's presence. For the believer, it will be heaven; for the unbeliever, it will be hell.
    If God is omnipresent, as claimed, then you are in his presence now. Do you feel yourself to be in heaven? I, as an atheist, certainly don't believe myself to be in hell.
    Last edited by Tassman; 11-29-2018, 11:45 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • JimL
    replied
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    You would reject anything we said, JimL.

    But please, assuming a biblical view of sin and heaven, please explain why my analogy and explanation was illogical.
    Well, the whole idea is rather silly when you come right down to it. Billions of people, both past and present, knew or know, barely nothing of chrisianity, just as most christians knew or know barely nothing of other religions, so the whole idea of christianity itself doesn't make sense. But specific to the issue, there are many problems. Life spans vary, giving advantage to those who live long enough to experience enough of life to make reasoned choices. A 12 year old might die never hearing a thing about christianity, while another may not have learned about it until they were 30 and lived another 60 years mulling it over. So, it would be unjust for one thing. Also, some people, after honestly mulling it over, just wouldn't come to the same conclusion as you regarding the truth of Christianity to which your response is "well then, they made their choice so to hell they go. That is just silly. And to think that people would consciously choose to go to a hellish place rather than a heavenly place, for eternity, is also silly. But in the end, the idea that god has to both change you, erase your sin nature, and remove temptation from you, makes the whole crucible idea illogical. I just don't think that you are thinking very deeply about what that means.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mountain Man
    replied
    This is my last contribution to this thread...

    Originally posted by JimLamebrain View Post
    In what sense will you be in the direct presence of god in heaven that you are not in his direct presence here on earth?
    Seriously? Exodus 18 gives us a brief description of what it's like to be in the direct presence of God:

    18 Moses said, Please show me your glory. 19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before you and will proclaim before you my name The Lord. And I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy. 20 But, he said, you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live. 21 And the Lord said, Behold, there is a place by me where you shall stand on the rock, 22 and while my glory passes by I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and I will cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23 Then I will take away my hand, and you shall see my back, but my face shall not be seen.

    God's is omnipresent, yes, but we are not in his direct presence here on Earth.

    Originally posted by JimLamebrain View Post
    Well we've already gone over that one. If the enviroment of heaven, you know, no sickness, no hunger, no war, no pain, etc etc., is one that makes us not want to sin, then the question is why didn't god create that environment for us in the first place?
    He did, and man rejected it. Go read the book of Genesis some time.

    And before you get all arrogant and say, "Well I wouldn't have rejected it!", the fact is, you already did. That's the curious thing about us humans; it is theoretically possible that each one of us could have lived a perfect life, but instead, at our first opportunity, we chose to sin -- that is we willingly chose to do what we knew was wrong when it was in our power to do what was right. Skeptics often protest, "Why should I be judged for Adam's sins!" The good news is that you won't be. The bad news is that you will be judged for your sins.

    Originally posted by JimLamebrain View Post
    If we need be changed, incorruptible bodies and all, in order that we not sin, then the so called crucible of earth would make no sense.
    It makes perfect sense within the Christian worldview for the reasons I and others have explained. You suppose that God could have made us incapable of sinning from the beginning when there's nothing in the Bible to support that premise. Not even the angels in heaven are immune to the temptation of sin.

    Originally posted by JimLamebrain View Post
    If God truely wanted us to choose to accept or reject him then he would make himself absolutely known to us as would be the case if, like satan, he created us in his heavenly presence in the first place.
    Here's the thing: God has made himself known to us and has made available to us everything we need to know to be saved. I and every other believer on earth is proof of that. Am I a Christian only because I was given some special revelation that was denied to you? Nope. You have access to the exact same knowledge and evidence as me. In the words of Joshua:

    "If it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."

    Leave a comment:


  • Mountain Man
    replied
    Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
    Christians, please describe what life in Heaven would be like, from an atheistic perspective.
    I like the theory that we will all spend eternity in God's presence. For the believer, it will be heaven; for the unbeliever, it will be hell.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mountain Man
    replied
    Originally posted by Tassmoron View Post
    The problem is that your answers presuppose that your beliefs are the correct worldview even though they are not substantiated by credible evidence.
    Jimmy's question in the OP necessarily presupposes that the Christian worldview is true even if only for the sake of argument.

    But of course his question was disingenuous from the start, and he was ready to reject any answer given before he even started the thread.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mountain Man
    replied
    Originally posted by MankyScotsGit View Post
    He could also have made you with the intellect of a banana but He didn't.
    In Jimmy's case, I'm not so sure about that.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sparko
    replied
    Originally posted by JimL View Post
    Said like a true cult leader. Listen to me children, I know it doesn't make a lot of sense, it may sound foolish, but if you want to live forever, believe it.

    No, if it made sense I would have the option as to whether to believe or not, but since it doesn't make sense I have no option but to reject it.
    You would reject anything we said, JimL.

    But please, assuming a biblical view of sin and heaven, please explain why my analogy and explanation was illogical.
    Last edited by Sparko; 11-29-2018, 11:24 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • JimL
    replied
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    1 Corinthians 1:18
    For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
    Said like a true cult leader. Listen to me children, I know it doesn't make a lot of sense, it may sound foolish, but if you want to live forever, believe it.
    Jim if it made sense to you, you wouldn't still be an atheist.
    No, if it made sense I would have the option as to whether to believe or not, but since it doesn't make sense I have no option but to reject it.

    Leave a comment:


  • JonathanL
    replied
    Originally posted by Tassman View Post
    The problem is that your answers presuppose that your beliefs are the correct worldview even though they are not substantiated by credible evidence.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sparko
    replied
    Originally posted by JimL View Post
    Right, with the obvious expectation that what you thought concerning this issue would make sense.
    1 Corinthians 1:18
    For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

    Jim if it made sense to you, you wouldn't still be an atheist.

    Leave a comment:

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