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Life in Heaven.

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  • #76
    Originally posted by JimL View Post
    But you have submitted yourself to god, right? And the holy spirit, i.e. the 3rd person of the trinity, lives within you, right? And you have also had the experience of sin, right? Yet with all that you are still a sinner, right? So none of these things stop you from sinning, so what is it that you believe will actually do the trick?
    I have not gotten my glorified body yet.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by sparko View Post
      i have not gotten my glorified body yet.
      truth!!!!

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      • #78
        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        I have not gotten my glorified body yet.
        A body, glorified or not, is just a body Sparko, it's not who you are, you're the person inside the body, correct. So, again, you're just making all this stuff up, but it isn't making sense.

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by JimL View Post
          For those of you with an understanding of Heaven, how will life be different there? Personally I don't see how you can be any less of a sinner in heaven than you are here on earth unless what you call your sin nature is somehow recreated by God. And if in order to not sin, you need be transformed by God into a "non-sinner" then what was the point of this so called earthly crucible?
          The purpose of this earthly life, which will come to an end, is to fit us for eternal life in Christ, which will have no end. That eternal life begins during the course of this life.

          We are on earth, not for our own sakes, but to know, love, and serve God in this world, that we may be with Him forever in the next. By receiving the gift of faith in Him - and “faith is the assurance of things not seen”, not the capacity to believe six impossible things before breakfast - we are to live by this assurance, and exercise it constantly, so that the realities we know dimly by faith may become ever more real to us; so that when the time comes, we may at last enter in to the good things which in this mortal life we have known by faith. And this life is communal - we are not isolated units, but members of a single Body, the Body of Christ which is His Church. We are limbs of Christ, and limbs of one another, all sharing in the same Spirit of Christ Who is the Spirit of the whole Body. I don’t know what the details of Protestant belief are, but those of us who are Catholic or Orthodox place a lot of emphasis on the reality and unity of the life of the Church in Heaven.

          No-one can be said to “understand Heaven”. St Paul puts it best, as so often:

          8Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. 11When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.…”

          https://biblehub.com/nasb/1_corinthians/13.htm

          I don’t mean to dodge your questions by fobbing you off with Bible quotations. It’s just that the Bible often says, better than one could oneself, what it is one is trying to say.

          Verse 11 is where most (all ?) Christians on earth are now: we know there is a Heaven, but we do not know of it from experience, since “flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God”. To inherit the Kingdom, we must be changed, in body and soul. In this world, we cannot speak of Heaven by experience, but only in an inadequate way, that is less than the reality of it. We are like children prattling about what they do not understand adequately, but can nonetheless glimpse as being real, and not an illusion. Perhaps the best we can do in speaking of Heaven, is to purify our ideas of it as much as possible from whatever distorts them. Scripture is of immense help in this, because it has so much to tell us about God & Christ and the Holy Spirit.

          Jonathan Edwardes called Heaven “a world of love”. That is a pretty good brief description.
          Last edited by Rushing Jaws; 11-27-2018, 03:37 AM.

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          • #80
            Originally posted by JimL View Post
            A body, glorified or not, is just a body Sparko, it's not who you are, you're the person inside the body, correct. So, again, you're just making all this stuff up, but it isn't making sense.
            I don't expect you to believe me JimL, or think it makes sense. You are not a Christian. But I do expect you to accept my answer since you ASKED for it. We believe there is a fundamental difference between a sin nature and a glorified nature. I tried to explain it to you above as the sin nature being addicted to sin, like a heroin addict is physically addicted to heroin. He may try to not shoot up, but he body will eventually force him to do it. But once made clean, he can avoid the heroin if he chooses, and having experienced the horrors of being addicted to heroin, he is not likely to shoot up again. Especially if there is no heroin around to tempt him. Now you can try to force a heroin addict to get clean, but if it is not his choice and he likes the heroin, he will just go right back to it. He has to WANT to give it up and change. Even if he can't while addicted to it. His desire will allow him to kick the habit once he is made clean.

            It is the same with sin. Our nature is addicted to sin. We might try to avoid sinning but eventually our nature will cause us to sin again. We have to want to change and give ourselves to God. Only then, when we are glorified can we avoid sin and be free of it. There will be no temptation in heaven, and we will have had the experience of how horrible the addiction to sin was to keep us clean.

            If God were to force us to be clean and sin free and we still loved sin, we would just go right back to it. In fact, I think that is what Hell is. God will give even you an eternal, perfect body JimL, but you will not want to be sin free. You will want to return to sin, and God will let you and you will be put in a place where you can do what you want for eternity, wallowing in your sin and shame, without infecting the rest of us.
            Last edited by Sparko; 11-27-2018, 09:00 AM.

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            • #81
              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              I don't expect you to believe me JimL, or think it makes sense. You are not a Christian. But I do expect you to accept my answer since you ASKED for it. We believe there is a fundamental difference between a sin nature and a glorified nature. I tried to explain it to you above as the sin nature being addicted to sin, like a heroin addict is physically addicted to heroin. He may try to not shoot up, but he body will eventually force him to do it. But once made clean, he can avoid the heroin if he chooses, and having experienced the horrors of being addicted to heroin, he is not likely to shoot up again. Especially if there is no heroin around to tempt him. Now you can try to force a heroin addict to get clean, but if it is not his choice and he likes the heroin, he will just go right back to it. He has to WANT to give it up and change. Even if he can't while addicted to it. His desire will allow him to kick the habit once he is made clean.

              It is the same with sin. Our nature is addicted to sin. We might try to avoid sinning but eventually our nature will cause us to sin again. We have to want to change and give ourselves to God. Only then, when we are glorified can we avoid sin and be free of it. There will be no temptation in heaven, and we will have had the experience of how horrible the addiction to sin was to keep us clean.

              If God were to force us to be clean and sin free and we still loved sin, we would just go right back to it. In fact, I think that is what Hell is. God will give even you an eternal, perfect body JimL, but you will not want to be sin free. You will want to return to sin, and God will let you and you will be put in a place where you can do what you want for eternity, wallowing in your sin and shame, without infecting the rest of us.
              Who determines what this “sin’ is to which you claim we are addicted? And are not those who believe in and await their "glorified" bodies and eternal life equally addicted to this escapist notion. One which, furthermore, cannot be substantiated?
              “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                I don't expect you to believe me JimL, or think it makes sense. You are not a Christian. But I do expect you to accept my answer since you ASKED for it. We believe there is a fundamental difference between a sin nature and a glorified nature. I tried to explain it to you above as the sin nature being addicted to sin, like a heroin addict is physically addicted to heroin. He may try to not shoot up, but he body will eventually force him to do it. But once made clean, he can avoid the heroin if he chooses, and having experienced the horrors of being addicted to heroin, he is not likely to shoot up again. Especially if there is no heroin around to tempt him. Now you can try to force a heroin addict to get clean, but if it is not his choice and he likes the heroin, he will just go right back to it. He has to WANT to give it up and change. Even if he can't while addicted to it. His desire will allow him to kick the habit once he is made clean.

                It is the same with sin. Our nature is addicted to sin. We might try to avoid sinning but eventually our nature will cause us to sin again. We have to want to change and give ourselves to God. Only then, when we are glorified can we avoid sin and be free of it. There will be no temptation in heaven, and we will have had the experience of how horrible the addiction to sin was to keep us clean.

                If God were to force us to be clean and sin free and we still loved sin, we would just go right back to it. In fact, I think that is what Hell is. God will give even you an eternal, perfect body JimL, but you will not want to be sin free. You will want to return to sin, and God will let you and you will be put in a place where you can do what you want for eternity, wallowing in your sin and shame, without infecting the rest of us.
                Sorry Sparko, but you're explanation is just an untenible fabrication in my opinion. "Sin" is not some thing that we are addicted to, "sin" is simply a word we use to denote actions that we have determined to be wrong, usually because, though perhaps beneficial to ourselves, they would be detrimental to others, or to society in general. The detrimental aspect of sinning, for the sinner, is psychological in nature, not physical, so your glorified body idea, not to mention that you are just making it up, makes no sense.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by JimL View Post
                  Sorry Sparko, but you're explanation is just an untenible fabrication in my opinion. "Sin" is not some thing that we are addicted to, "sin" is simply a word we use to denote actions that we have determined to be wrong, usually because, though perhaps beneficial to ourselves, they would be detrimental to others, or to society in general. The detrimental aspect of sinning, for the sinner, is psychological in nature, not physical, so your glorified body idea, not to mention that you are just making it up, makes no sense.
                  You understand what an analogy is, right?
                  I gave you the biblical explanation about sin natures and glorified bodies. And an analogy to help you understand. For you to say it is a fabrication just shows you have not read the bible.

                  But Jim, I am done. I see that nothing anyone says matters to you anyway.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    JimL: Explain how God will make sure people don't sin in heaven.

                    Sparko: Gives a perfectly reasonable answer based on the Christian worldview.

                    JimL: Did I say "explain how God will make sure people don't sin in heaven"? My bad, what I actually meant was, "explain how God will make sure people don't sin in heaven, assuming an atheistic worldview"

                    ~Formerly known as Chrawnus~

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                      JimL: Explain how God will make sure people don't sin in heaven.

                      Sparko: Gives a perfectly reasonable answer based on the Christian worldview.

                      JimL: Did I say "explain how God will make sure people don't sin in heaven"? My bad, what I actually meant was, "explain how God will make sure people don't sin in heaven, assuming an atheistic worldview"

                      No, actually I asked for a logical answer to the question, one that makes sense, perhaps a logical one actually specified biblically, not ones own illogical fabrication. Not that I mind ones own opinion on the matter, but if it doesn't make sense I'm going to point out the flaw in it, which is what I've been doing. Problem is, christians are all over the map on the issue and my suspician is that the reason for that is because, really, it makes no sense, and no matter how hard they work at it, they can't really make it make sense.

                      In the end, regardless of all of Sparko's contrivance, it comes down to the one thing, god has to recreate you and your environment somehow, else you would go on sinning in heaven just as you do on earth which makes the crucible idea an illogical idea.
                      Last edited by JimL; 11-28-2018, 08:52 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by JimL View Post
                        Not that I mind ones own opinion on the matter, but if it doesn't make sense I'm going to point out the flaw in it, which is what I've been doing.
                        No, what you've been doing is rejecting answers you've been given using objections that are only viable if you're already presupposing that atheism is the correct worldview, as evidenced by this post of yours which I quote below:

                        Originally posted by JimL View Post
                        Sorry Sparko, but you're explanation is just an untenible fabrication in my opinion. "Sin" is not some thing that we are addicted to, "sin" is simply a word we use to denote actions that we have determined to be wrong, usually because, though perhaps beneficial to ourselves, they would be detrimental to others, or to society in general. The detrimental aspect of sinning, for the sinner, is psychological in nature, not physical, so your glorified body idea, not to mention that you are just making it up, makes no sense.
                        ~Formerly known as Chrawnus~

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                          No, what you've been doing is rejecting answers you've been given using objections that are only viable if you're already presupposing that atheism is the correct worldview, as evidenced by this post of yours which I quote below:
                          The problem is that your answers presuppose that your beliefs are the correct worldview even though they are not substantiated by credible evidence.
                          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by JimL View Post
                            No, actually I asked for a logical answer to the question, one that makes sense, perhaps a logical one actually specified biblically, not ones own illogical fabrication. Not that I mind ones own opinion on the matter, but if it doesn't make sense I'm going to point out the flaw in it, which is what I've been doing. Problem is, christians are all over the map on the issue and my suspician is that the reason for that is because, really, it makes no sense, and no matter how hard they work at it, they can't really make it make sense.

                            In the end, regardless of all of Sparko's contrivance, it comes down to the one thing, god has to recreate you and your environment somehow, else you would go on sinning in heaven just as you do on earth which makes the crucible idea an illogical idea.
                            No actually you asked for this:

                            For those of you with an understanding of Heaven, how will life be different there? Personally I don't see how you can be any less of a sinner in heaven than you are here on earth unless what you call your sin nature is somehow recreated by God. And if in order to not sin, you need be transformed by God into a "non-sinner" then what was the point of this so called earthly crucible?
                            And as someone with an understanding of Heaven from a Christian perspective, I gave you an answer from the biblical perspective complete with bible quotes and analogies to help you understand that view. I also told you some of my theories where the bible is not clear. But nothing I said was good enough, not because it was not logical, but because you are just trolling and don't give a crap what anyone says. But then I wasn't really posting to you but others who may read this thread. It serves three purposes:

                            1. To show that there are people like you out there who ask questions not to get answers, but to have something to argue against and will reject no matter what is said.
                            2. That there are actually good answers to these questions even if the asker doesn't care.
                            3. Now you have one less excuse to use when you are confronted by God on why you chose to disbelieve.

                            You aren't fooling anyone JimL. Except yourself.

                            I actually still pray for you and your soul JimL. That you will wake up one day. I was where you are now once. You just have to stop fighting and accept the truth.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                              The problem is that your answers presuppose that your beliefs are the correct worldview even though they are not substantiated by credible evidence.
                              So...we're supposed to answer the question "Life in Heaven?" by not presupposing a Christian worldview?
                              I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                                No, what you've been doing is rejecting answers you've been given using objections that are only viable if you're already presupposing that atheism is the correct worldview, as evidenced by this post of yours which I quote below:
                                Exactly, he had to resort to denying what sin is from an atheist's perspective in order to reject my explanation. But he has to presuppose a Christian God and biblical explanation in order to get an answer from a Christian point of view, which is what he asked for.

                                It's like asking "What do Christians think God is like?" and then no matter what they say, he says "That is illogical! God doesn't exist so he can't be like that!"

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