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Life in Heaven.

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  • #61
    Johnny, you stinky Arminian, you!

    No wonder you're really an atheist!

    But I love ya anyway.



    Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by MankyScotsGit View Post
      I don't think anyone's mentioned (within the Christian worldview) one major difference between the circumstances faced on Earth where even believers may be lead into sin which will be absent in Heaven - Temptation.

      Warning! - When I was a Christian, I may have held a somewhat different doctrine of sin & sinning than others here.

      Prior to salvation, a human has the 'fallen' (sin) nature and this by itself will cause the human to reject God and to turn to sin. Even after salvation, this sin nature is still present, however, it can be counteracted/eradicated (depending on your view) by the Holy Spirit if one is Entirely Sanctified. Even then, it is still the case that such a believer can and will sin, by falling for temptation. Once 'in Heaven' the Sin Nature is eradicated and Temptation (by the Devil) is obviously gone, so believers in Heaven 'can' no longer sin. The purpose of this Crucible (as JimL puts it) is to allow humans to decide to choose whether to be saved or lost. (Yeah, I was a stinky Arminian, unlike you mean old nasty Calvinists. )

      Johnny
      Then god could have created us with those glorified bodies in heaven in the first place and allowed us to choose whether to be saved or lost from there. The whole point of the question is what point does the crucible serve if in the end God has to both change us and our environment anyway in order that we become sinnless?
      Last edited by JimL; 11-22-2018, 10:12 AM.

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      • #63
        Hello Jim. Forget about the sin thing for a moment. Ask... if initially "God is" the One and Only, how is it that we are "not God" seeing that all things proceed from Him? Only one way my friend. We live, yet not we, but He lives in us. The confession of the new creation. Autonomy is an illusion based upon a real breach in the heavenly realm. A pattern for this if found in the Seven Day account of creation. Specifically in the First Day. One day wherein there is light and darkness, distinguished yet One. Note that the Light of that day was called "good" signifying that is the Light of God since it is written elsewhere that "...God alone is good...". The darkness wasn't spoken of but it was named Night. These, in the beginning, represent a "two" become "one" creation. The whole Day was "good" by virtue of the Light of God within... just as long as Night remained still. It did not... thus the Day became "as two". When this happened the voice of Eve's flesh was awakened and, being now divided in thought, she desired to know good and evil... not knowing that only in death would this knowledge come as she would understand suddenly that what she had was life. Adam followed her there and became aware of the same truth. The kicker... without a knowledge of "good" God would never have been known... since God alone is good. Consequently we could not have discovered what we are apart from Him... evil. So, we exist in the aftermath as if autonomous by virtue of the same breach that occurred in the beginning. Until this breach is repaired within us we will never know "God", that He alone is good, and thus will simultaneously know evil from hindsight. How is the breach repaired? Only by hearing God's voice... and in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son.

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        • #64
          ....to add correction. If and when we pass from death to life, then we will know good... and evil from hindsight. The knowledge of good and evil meant death in the beginning. But it means life in the end. We see, then, what our adversary meant for evil, God meant for good.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by JimL View Post
            Then god could have created us with those glorified bodies in heaven in the first place and allowed us to choose whether to be saved or lost from there. The whole point of the question is what point does the crucible serve if in the end God has to both change us and our environment anyway in order that we become sinnless?
            Hey Jim,

            Yes, (assuming theism) He could have, although what you describe is closer to what the angels are. He could also have made you with the intellect of a banana but He didn't.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by MankyScotsGit View Post
              Hey Jim,

              Yes, (assuming theism) He could have, although what you describe is closer to what the angels are. He could also have made you with the intellect of a banana but He didn't.
              The point being that the christian idea, and a main point of christianity, of an earthly crucible, is an illogical one. It makes no sense, so why should anyone believe it? I'm trying to get a logical answer here from a christian perspective, because I don't see one myself. Christianity seems to be a contradiction on this point in that it says that we are sinners by nature, and can do nothing about that, but if we believe, god will change our sinful natures to innocent natures. So what is the point of the crucible if we really can't change our own nature until we get a complete makeover by god after we die?

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              • #67
                Hey Jim, I get ya.

                Perhaps the need for 'this crucible' rather than just having it all play out in Heaven is partly because with God being Holy and sin being incompatible with His presence then the 'drama' had to play out somewhere out of Heaven... I realise that raises other questions about God being everywhere!

                There is a notion within early Gnosticism and the Fall from Heaven that the souls of humanity also fell from Heaven along with the Devil and the other naughty angels. I'm not sure if that's a concept that sits within the, ahem, ultra literal orthodoxy of the type of Christianity you are pursuing on this question.

                Let's throw that out, as it's a question that I've not been able to resolve within my own explore of orthodox Christianity, and it does have pertinence: When are/were human souls created? Were all souls created around about 'the beginning' and hang around awaiting their turn, or are they created individually 'on demand' at some point after conception? And, at what point does the human soul become sinful?

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by JimL View Post
                  Then god could have created us with those glorified bodies in heaven in the first place and allowed us to choose whether to be saved or lost from there. The whole point of the question is what point does the crucible serve if in the end God has to both change us and our environment anyway in order that we become sinnless?
                  as I have said at least 3 times now. it is about having the experience of sin.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Personally I think the main reason we're not immediately made perfect and "whisked away" to God is not because we're supposed to grow and mature in the faith (although that happens as well) as if our time here was some sort of "crucible", but so that we can preach the gospel to the unsaved and maybe a few more people will be saved through our words and actions. IOW, it's not for your own personal gain that you're not immediately made sin-free and taken away the moment you get saved, but for the sake of others.
                    ~Formerly known as Chrawnus~

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      as I have said at least 3 times now. it is about having the experience of sin.
                      If the experience is unaffective, then the experience is superfluous. If in the end both you and your environment need be changed in order that you be sinless, then the experience suffered of your imperfect nature in an imperfect environment is purposeless. All it does is show the difference between how you would act under the conditions in the one situation from that of the other.

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by JimL View Post
                        If the experience is unaffective, then the experience is superfluous. If in the end both you and your environment need be changed in order that you be sinless, then the experience suffered of your imperfect nature in an imperfect environment is purposeless. All it does is show the difference between how you would act under the conditions in the one situation from that of the other.
                        no Jim, it's all about our nature. If God put a person with a sin nature in heaven, he would just sin. and someone with a sinless nature with no experience of sin, will sin. I think only a formerly sinful person with a glorified nature who has voluntarily submitted themselves to God and is indwelt by the holy spirit can remain sinless.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          no Jim, it's all about our nature. If God put a person with a sin nature in heaven, he would just sin. and someone with a sinless nature with no experience of sin, will sin. I think only a formerly sinful person with a glorified nature who has voluntarily submitted themselves to God and is indwelt by the holy spirit can remain sinless.
                          Really, well explain what you mean by a glorified nature, and being indwelt by the holy spirit then?

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by JimL View Post
                            Really, well explain what you mean by a glorified nature, and being indwelt by the holy spirit then?
                            a perfect nature that doesn't have an 'addiction to sin', that will not decay or die, that has submitted themselves to God and God's holy spirit lives within, guiding that person.

                            1 Corinthians 3:16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
                            1 Corinthians 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?
                            2 Corinthians 6:16 Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, "I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
                            Ezekiel 36:27 "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
                            https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topi...he-Holy-Spirit


                            Philippians 3:20-21 ESV But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              a perfect nature that doesn't have an 'addiction to sin', that will not decay or die, that has submitted themselves to God and God's holy spirit lives within, guiding that person.

                              1 Corinthians 3:16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
                              1 Corinthians 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?
                              2 Corinthians 6:16 Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, "I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
                              Ezekiel 36:27 "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
                              https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topi...he-Holy-Spirit


                              Philippians 3:20-21 ESV But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.
                              But you have submitted yourself to god, right? And the holy spirit, i.e. the 3rd person of the trinity, lives within you, right? And you have also had the experience of sin, right? Yet with all that you are still a sinner, right? So none of these things stop you from sinning, so what is it that you believe will actually do the trick?

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by JimL View Post
                                So none of these things stop you from sinning, so what is it that you believe will actually do the trick?
                                The removal of temptation.

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