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Life in Heaven.

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  • #46
    Originally posted by JimL View Post
    I just wanted to see if any of you actually had, or cared to have a legitimate answer to a question that you yourself wondered about. You obviously don't have an answer, you say the bible doesn't give you an answer, and it seems you can't really come up with a logical answer as to the purpose of the crucible of earth. Again, in the end, if god has to recreate you, and or the environment, in some way in order that you no longer sin once in heaven, then there is no point in the crucible of earth.
    How was my answer not logical? Without living this life and knowing sin, how would we have the knowledge and willingness to avoid sin? If you deliberately put your hand on a hot stove and get burned, how many times will you do it in the future? But if you never experienced that, what is to stop you from trying it?

    God has had everything planned out from the beginning. Eden, the fall, the redemption and salvation.

    Now I don't expect you to believe in any of it, but within the framework of Christianity how can you say it is illogical?

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      How was my answer not logical? Without living this life and knowing sin, how would we have the knowledge and willingness to avoid sin? If you deliberately put your hand on a hot stove and get burned, how many times will you do it in the future? But if you never experienced that, what is to stop you from trying it?

      God has had everything planned out from the beginning. Eden, the fall, the redemption and salvation.

      Now I don't expect you to believe in any of it, but within the framework of Christianity how can you say it is illogical?
      If you could choose not to sin any longer then you would do so right now, yes? If you have to wait until you and your environment is somehow changed, recreated in heaven, then there is no logic to the necessity of the so called earthly crucible.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        Pretty sure no answer would satisfy him anyway. He is not looking for answers but something to tear down.

        Yup. I knew that from the first post in this thread.


        Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by JimL View Post
          If you could choose not to sin any longer then you would do so right now, yes? If you have to wait until you and your environment is somehow changed, recreated in heaven, then there is no logic to the necessity of the so called earthly crucible.
          I still have a fallen sin nature Jim. I can't help sinning. Like a crack addict. When I am made glorified, I will have a nature that can "not sin." I explained all that in my original post. Did you even bother to read it, or just glanced at it and made your attack?

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            I still have a fallen sin nature Jim. I can't help sinning. Like a crack addict. When I am made glorified, I will have a nature that can "not sin." I explained all that in my original post. Did you even bother to read it, or just glanced at it and made your attack?
            Sheesh! That's my point, Sparko. If you need be made anew in heaven, glorified body and all, in order that you no longer sin, then the earthly crucible doesn't make any sense.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by JimL View Post
              Sheesh! That's my point, Sparko. If you need be made anew in heaven, glorified body and all, in order that you no longer sin, then the earthly crucible doesn't make any sense.
              Yes it does, because it provides us with the necessary experience to want to avoid sin when we have the ability to do so. Thus the hot stove analogy. Apparently just having the ability to choose not to sin is not enough because Adam had that and chose to sin. Satan had that and chose to sin. The necessary component is having the experience of sin so we realize how horrible it is and the consequences of it are.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                Yes it does, because it provides us with the necessary experience to want to avoid sin when we have the ability to do so. Thus the hot stove analogy. Apparently just having the ability to choose not to sin is not enough because Adam had that and chose to sin. Satan had that and chose to sin. The necessary component is having the experience of sin so we realize how horrible it is and the consequences of it are.
                You don't want to sin now do you? And yet you do? You won't want to sin in Heaven either will you, and so you won't. Why not? What will have changed from the time you were a sinner on earth, until the time you stopped sinning in heaven? God did it. If you want to stop, but can't, until you are changed by god, then it is the change that is responsible for your stopping your sinful ways, not any learning you got on earth.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by JimL View Post
                  You don't want to sin now do you? And yet you do? You won't want to sin in Heaven either will you, and so you won't. Why not? What will have changed from the time you were a sinner on earth, until the time you stopped sinning in heaven? God did it. If you want to stop, but can't, until you are changed by god, then it is the change that is responsible for your stopping your sinful ways, not any learning you got on earth.
                  Go back and read my initial post. I covered ALL of this in that post. It is clear you didn't bother to read it carefully.

                  http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post592649

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    Go back and read my initial post. I covered ALL of this in that post. It is clear you didn't bother to read it carefully.

                    http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post592649
                    I read the entire post and understand your rationalization completely. Problem is that 1) you made it up whole cloth, and 2) If in the end, as your theory admits to, you can not stop yourself from sinning, until being changed by god, then the experience of the crucible is pointless. According to you we would be no different in nature in heaven than we are here on earth without being supernaturally changed.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      Go back and read my initial post. I covered ALL of this in that post. It is clear you didn't bother to read it carefully.

                      http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post592649

                      He doesn't care, Sparky. And his claim to being sincere obviously wasn't.


                      Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                        He doesn't care, Sparky. And his claim to being sincere obviously wasn't.
                        I don't care about what?

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by JimL View Post
                          I don't care about what?


                          Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by JimL View Post
                            I read the entire post and understand your rationalization completely. Problem is that 1) you made it up whole cloth, and 2) If in the end, as your theory admits to, you can not stop yourself from sinning, until being changed by god, then the experience of the crucible is pointless. According to you we would be no different in nature in heaven than we are here on earth without being supernaturally changed.
                            1. I didn't "make it up whole cloth" - I have thought about it a lot and gave you my best answer based on what scripture tells us and what I have been taught in church. I asked the very question of my pastor and had a discussion with him about it several years ago.

                            2. I am not going to keep going in circles with you. You are determined to ignore what I said and repeat your ignorant objection. It is not pointless, as I have patiently explained several times now. Go back and read it again.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                              He doesn't care, Sparky. And his claim to being sincere obviously wasn't.
                              I know. This entire thread was a troll to him. But others with the same questions will have an answer here if they want it. I don't really expect nor care if JimL does.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                I don't think anyone's mentioned (within the Christian worldview) one major difference between the circumstances faced on Earth where even believers may be lead into sin which will be absent in Heaven - Temptation.

                                Warning! - When I was a Christian, I may have held a somewhat different doctrine of sin & sinning than others here.

                                Prior to salvation, a human has the 'fallen' (sin) nature and this by itself will cause the human to reject God and to turn to sin. Even after salvation, this sin nature is still present, however, it can be counteracted/eradicated (depending on your view) by the Holy Spirit if one is Entirely Sanctified. Even then, it is still the case that such a believer can and will sin, by falling for temptation. Once 'in Heaven' the Sin Nature is eradicated and Temptation (by the Devil) is obviously gone, so believers in Heaven 'can' no longer sin. The purpose of this Crucible (as JimL puts it) is to allow humans to decide to choose whether to be saved or lost. (Yeah, I was a stinky Arminian, unlike you mean old nasty Calvinists. )

                                Johnny

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