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Creating God

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  • #31
    Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    You can't just label a belief "properly basic" and make it so by fiat. Properly basic beliefs are rare, and belief in god is not one of them - despite Plantinga's assertions.
    Any argument you can use against God being a properly basic belief can be used against any PB belief you present. Want to try?
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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    • #32
      Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
      Sorry, MM, but that simply is not true. If it were, I wouldn't be atheist.

      You can't just label a belief "properly basic" and make it so by fiat. Properly basic beliefs are rare, and belief in god is not one of them - despite Plantinga's assertions.
      You obviously don't understand what a properly basic belief is. It's more than just declaring that something is true simply because you wish it.
      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
      Than a fool in the eyes of God


      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
        Yes - I am describing the world as it exists - and I believe that it exists without a god. So this explanation helps flesh out why the notion of a "punisher god" is so pervasive in the variety of extant religions..
        Like I said at the start, "the problem with this and similar theories is that they don't disprove God but simply presuppose that he doesn't exist and then try to rationalize why so many people believe that he does."

        The short version is that your belief here is based on a begged question. In order to know whether or not your theory is correct, you would have to conclusively disprove the existence of God.
        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
        Than a fool in the eyes of God


        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
          Like I said at the start, "the problem with this and similar theories is that they don't disprove God but simply presuppose that he doesn't exist and then try to rationalize why so many people believe that he does."
          It's not clear to me that the study makes any presuppositions about gods - merely about the link between beliefs and social needs.

          Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
          The short version is that your belief here is based on a begged question. In order to know whether or not your theory is correct, you would have to conclusively disprove the existence of God.
          Actually - no. Sociology traces behavior links to causes at a social level - and does so without any presuppositions about the truth of those beliefs. In other words, beliefs about a punisher god could very well have formed to solve a social problem - and the punisher god could actually exist. Or beliefs about a punisher god could have formed to solve a social problem - and the punisher god could not exist. The theory around the formation of the beliefs is not a claim about whether or not such a god exists, and does not presuppose an answer to that question.

          For the atheist - who has already concluded that a god does not exist - this theory provides an explanation for the pervasive belief in such beings in our various religions. For the theist, especially the one that believes they have had a "personal encounter" with this being, they are probably not going to be convinced about the link between social needs and this belief system. But then they are in a position of having to explain why the concept of punisher gods tends to emerge in societies at that point in their development, and are largely absent in smaller groups.
          Last edited by carpedm9587; 12-01-2018, 01:29 PM.
          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
            Of course it can. Belief in God is properly basic.

            https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writ...-basic-beliefs
            I believe in God, the concept of the 'belief in God is properly basic.' and is not a meaningful argument for the existence of God.
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
              It's not clear to me that the study makes any presuppositions about gods - merely about the link between beliefs and social needs.



              Actually - no. Sociology traces behavior links to causes at a social level - and does so without any presuppositions about the truth of those beliefs. In other words, beliefs about a punisher god could very well have formed to solve a social problem - and the punisher god could actually exist. Or beliefs about a punisher god could have formed to solve a social problem - and the punisher god could not exist. The theory around the formation of the beliefs is not a claim about whether or not such a god exists, and does not presuppose an answer to that question.

              For the atheist - who has already concluded that a god does not exist - this theory provides an explanation for the pervasive belief in such beings in our various religions. For the theist, especially the one that believes they have had a "personal encounter" with this being, they are probably not going to be convinced about the link between social needs and this belief system. But then they are in a position of having to explain why the concept of punisher gods tends to emerge in societies at that point in their development, and are largely absent in smaller groups.
              You're not really refuting anything I've said.
              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
              Than a fool in the eyes of God


              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                I believe in God, the concept of the 'belief in God is properly basic.' and is not a meaningful argument for the existence of God.
                It's not an argument for God's existence but that belief in God is reasonable and rational in and of itself.
                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                  It's not an argument for God's existence but that belief in God is reasonable and rational in and of itself.
                  Still not meaningful, because there is a wide range and variety of beliefs that can be described as reasonable and rational in and of itself including atheism.
                  Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                  Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                  But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                  go with the flow the river knows . . .

                  Frank

                  I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                    It's not an argument for God's existence but that belief in God is reasonable and rational in and of itself.
                    Perhaps believing in god is not in itself unreasonable, perhaps, but belief in the biblical god, not so much!

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                      Still not meaningful, because there is a wide range and variety of beliefs that can be described as reasonable and rational in and of itself including atheism.
                      The point is that any argument that begins with the assumption that belief in God is inherently irrational is starting on the wrong foot.

                      As for atheism, I'm not certain it qualifies as properly basic because there's no way to Intuit it.

                      http://www.rightreason.org/2011/coul...-basic-belief/

                      To put it another way, atheism is a response to another belief and not a basic belief in and of itself.
                      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                      Than a fool in the eyes of God


                      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                        The point is that any argument that begins with the assumption that belief in God is inherently irrational is starting on the wrong foot.

                        As for atheism, I'm not certain it qualifies as properly basic because there's no way to Intuit it.

                        http://www.rightreason.org/2011/coul...-basic-belief/

                        To put it another way, atheism is a response to another belief and not a basic belief in and of itself.
                        What is interesting to me is the way in which human beings can come up with a rationalization for nearly anything in a way that it fits their beliefs. Atheism is a (properly basic belief) because that is all that we have empirical evidence of. Intuition as a basis for a (properly basic belief) is nonsense. But, whatever floats your boat!

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                          You're not really refuting anything I've said.
                          Except your claim that the article presupposes the non-existence of god.
                          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by JimLamebrain View Post
                            Atheism is a (properly basic belief) because that is all that we have empirical evidence of.
                            In other words, you don't have any idea what a properly basic belief actually is. Properly basic beliefs can not be empirically proven. That's what makes them "properly basic".

                            But now I'm curious, what is the empirical evidence that God doesn't exist? I'd love to see what you have -- or think you have.

                            Originally posted by JimLamebrain View Post
                            Intuition as a basis for a (properly basic belief) is nonsense.
                            To dismiss properly basic beliefs as "nonsense" is to say that we shouldn't believe anything that can't be empirically proven, which eliminates countless beliefs that we take for granted, including "I think; therefore, I am" and "There exists an external universe that I experience through my senses".
                            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                            Than a fool in the eyes of God


                            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                              Except your claim that the article presupposes the non-existence of god.
                              No, you haven't managed to do anything of the sort.
                              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                              sigpic
                              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                                Except your claim that the article presupposes the non-existence of god.
                                It's very simple: if God exists, then you don't need to explain why people believe he does, because it's a given. The only reason you would need a sociological explanation for belief in God is if you start with the presumption that he doesn't exist.
                                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                                Comment

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