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Creating God

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  • #16
    Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
    No, but if my crops fail because I failed to propitiate a deity, then I would consider that a punishment.
    Perhaps you are too used to thinking from the perspective of a punisher god - and an authoritative stance in general. If I say to my sons, "mow the lawn this weekend and I'll take you to the movies, and they don't mow the lawn, not taking them to the movies is not a punishment. They simply have failed to do what I have asked and are not reaping the benefit. From the perspective of animism, conducting rites/rituals is how you achieve something you want (good weather, good crops, good health). If you don't do it right, you just don't get what you want.

    And again - we are not talking about punishment for immoral action against the group. Different concept.

    Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
    If my crops fail, that could threaten the group, though. Negligence on my part can be morally culpable.
    You continue to impose "punisher god" thinking on an animistic religion. First of all, the these cultures, the rites and rituals were typically performed by the group, or the shaman as representing the group or conjunction with the group.

    Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
    'Tis too!
    I'll leave you to this one. I have long since learned there is no swaying someone who has adopted a particular interpretation of a text that fits their existing perspective. I think you are taking the sentence out of context, and attributing to it far more importance than it's use suggests. My evidence to that is the complete lack of any reference to perdition beliefs in any descriptions of animism that I have found. So, if you'd like to convince - you'll need to find a reasonably authoritative source that attributes perdition beliefs to animist religions.

    Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Well, it required me to subscribe, so I read as far as I could before making a contribution. I was hoping you would give me some relevant data.
    I have - the absence of any reference to perdition beliefs in animism descriptions.

    Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Yep! Because you made a negative claim.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    Lee - you seem to be attempting to make the positive claim that animism beliefs included the concept of perdition. I'm finding no such evidence in the literature, which is the only evidence I can provide for rejecting your claim. You are pointing to one sentence who's focus is on "armchair anthropologists" (as opposed to field work) and using that one sentence to defend the claim "they believed in perdition." Since there is NO reference to perdition beliefs in any of the literature I have examined, I conclude you are most likely wrong. If you want me to conclude differently, provide some evidence for these perdition beliefs.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
      If you want me to conclude differently, provide some evidence for these perdition beliefs.
      Well, I found a place, and I've said my say, so I think I will leave it at that!

      Blessings,
      Lee
      "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
        Well, I found a place, and I've said my say, so I think I will leave it at that!

        Blessings,
        Lee
        Fair enough, Lee. Since I think you are reading into that single line more than was intended by the author, we will have to agree to disagree. If I get a sec, I'll see if I can find the author's contact information and ask for a clarification.
        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
          If I get a sec, I'll see if I can find the author's contact information and ask for a clarification.
          Alrighty, sounds good.

          Blessing to you,
          Lee
          "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
            Alrighty, sounds good.

            Blessing to you,
            Lee
            Thanks for a very civil discussion, Lee. You're always a pleasure to exchange ideas/views with. You keep it about the ideas/views.
            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

            Comment


            • #21
              I likewise appreciate the good discussion! It's encouraging.

              Blessings,
              Lee
              "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                I likewise appreciate the good discussion! It's encouraging.

                Blessings,
                Lee
                I have been unable to find the author's email, but I sent an email to contact@eb.com and asked them to either connect me to the author, or to pass on the question. Now we wait...
                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                  The authors theorize that what is happening can be explained by looking at trust and cohesion within the group. When groups are small, everyone knows everyone else and that familiarity makes it difficult for any one person to deceive the group or take advantage of them. But when the group grows to a point where everyone cannot possibly know everyone else, it becomes more possible for rogue elements to join the group (or arise within the group) and for them to take advantage of some or all of the group. The evolutionary response to this is the development of a religion focused on a "punisher god" that helps to restore cohesion to the group. They cite multiple parallel studies that provide some evidence for this theory.
                  I'm not sure if you're offering this as an argument against the existence of God, but the problem with this and similar theories is that they don't disprove God but simply presuppose that he doesn't exist and then try to rationalize why so many people believe that he does. Richard Dawkins has attempted this same trick in several of his books.
                  Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                  But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                  Than a fool in the eyes of God


                  From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    To put it more simply, belief in the existence of God can be readily and logically explained by the existence of God.
                    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                    Than a fool in the eyes of God


                    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                      I'm not sure if you're offering this as an argument against the existence of God,
                      Not really - more as an argument for an alternative explanation for why humanity has the concept of a "punisher god" in so many of its main stream religions.

                      Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                      but the problem with this and similar theories is that they don't disprove God but simply presuppose that he doesn't exist and then try to rationalize why so many people believe that he does. Richard Dawkins has attempted this same trick in several of his books.
                      I'm not sure there is any assumption that god does not exist - it is entirely possible a god exists AND this is why people believe in this particular form of punisher god. This is more a possible explanation for why people believe as they do, rather than a proof that there is no god. For the atheist, it provides an explanation for modern religious models in the absence of a god. For the theist, it will probably neither prove nor disprove anything.
                      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                        To put it more simply, belief in the existence of God can be readily and logically explained by the existence of God.
                        Unfortunately, this existence cannot be readily and logically explained
                        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                          Unfortunately, this existence cannot be readily and logically explained
                          Of course it can. Belief in God is properly basic.

                          https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writ...-basic-beliefs
                          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                          Than a fool in the eyes of God


                          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                            I'm not sure there is any assumption that god does not exist - it is entirely possible a god exists AND this is why people believe in this particular form of punisher god. This is more a possible explanation for why people believe as they do, rather than a proof that there is no god. For the atheist, it provides an explanation for modern religious models in the absence of a god. For the theist, it will probably neither prove nor disprove anything.
                            Here's the curious thing: you're simply describing the world as it exists and not necessarily how it would exist without God.
                            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                            Than a fool in the eyes of God


                            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                              Of course it can. Belief in God is properly basic.

                              https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writ...-basic-beliefs
                              Sorry, MM, but that simply is not true. If it were, I wouldn't be atheist.

                              You can't just label a belief "properly basic" and make it so by fiat. Properly basic beliefs are rare, and belief in god is not one of them - despite Plantinga's assertions.
                              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                                Here's the curious thing: you're simply describing the world as it exists and not necessarily how it would exist without God.
                                Yes - I am describing the world as it exists - and I believe that it exists without a god. So this explanation helps flesh out why the notion of a "punisher god" is so pervasive in the variety of extant religions..
                                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                                Comment

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