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The Roman Church response to the atrocious scandals; "The Devil made me do it!"

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Tassman View Post
    I agree to the extent that having a celibate clergy reduces the possibility of acceptable sexual outlets, which then find satisfaction in utterly unacceptable ways such as with children. But the Protestant congregations have also had their sexual problems with the likes of Jimmy Swaggart and Ted Haggard. "several prominent evangelical institutions have been rocked in recent weeks by their own sexual misconduct allegations against pastors and church leaders who exploited the trust they had gained from faithful churchgoers."

    https://cruxnow.com/church-in-the-us...-in-metoo-era/



    Doctrinal correction: One is confessing to God in the presence of a priest, not to the priest himself.
    I believe a number of churches have the option of confessing to God in the presence of a priest or minister, but in the Roman Church it is mandatory. It is the celibacy and the unquestioned authority of the hierarchy of the priesthood that makes the Roman Church vulnerable on such a world scale on a grand scale found in no other church nor religion.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
      Catholics use a confessional, with a screen separating the one confessing from the priest. Those aren't used in Orthodoxy, but in my parish there is always someone else present chanting psalms, close enough to see but not overhear.
      In any event, I don't think the bulk of the molestations in the RCC have been taking place during confession.
      "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
        I believe a number of churches have the option of confessing to God in the presence of a priest or minister, but in the Roman Church it is mandatory.
        You are correct. I was simply correcting mossrose’s statement that "all you need to do is confess your sin to a priest", whereas it is not to a priest but to God in the presence of a priest.

        It is the celibacy and the unquestioned authority of the hierarchy of the priesthood that makes the Roman Church vulnerable
        The desirability of “celibacy” is a separate issue. The Eastern Orthodox Church has a better approach whereby they advocate a celibate clergy but make it a voluntary option. Although its bishops/patriarchs are always celibate...drawn from the monastic orders.

        on such a world scale on a grand scale found in no other church nor religion.
        Not necessarily so. “Victims are coming forward to expose abuse in the Protestant evangelical world where some say the misdeeds have been just as pervasive, though less publicized, as the acts committed by Catholic clergy”.

        https://www.apnews.com/b768d035ed8443ad97d193a5c36e240c

        It’s a question of authority and power, rather than merely celibacy per se in my view.
        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

        Comment


        • #34
          1. I don’t see why Satan and the relevant Catholic Priests aren’t both blameworthy.

          2. Francis says in the quote that The Church should be aware of IT’S GUILT, MISTAKES, and ABUSES, along with acknowledging ‘the attacks of the malign one’. I don’t see anything wrong with this.

          3. If you just reject the existence of the devil, that’s just an expression of your anti-supernaturalism toward that particular entity.

          4. And if the devil is real, or if someone believed the devil to be real, the quotations from Francis are just what I’d expect.

          5. Personally, I could care less what Carlo thinks. Francis is being Biblical. If Carlo has an argument against this usage, I’d be glad to hear it. For now, it’s just crickets and outrage.
          Many and painful are the researches sometimes necessary to be made, for settling points of [this] kind. Pertness and ignorance may ask a question in three lines, which it will cost learning and ingenuity thirty pages to answer. When this is done, the same question shall be triumphantly asked again the next year, as if nothing had ever been written upon the subject.
          George Horne

          Comment


          • #35
            The Catholic League’s Bill Donohue, commenting on a recent Atlantic article about the rise in requests for exorcisms, says that’s wonderful news. In fact, exorcisms could be most helpful for victims of sexual abuse, who are obviously possessed by demons.

            https://www.theatlantic.com/internat...ics.../336618/

            Source: https://www.catholicleague.org/exorcisms-surge/



            "Catholic League: Sexual Abuse Victims Attract Demons"

            Catholic League president Bill Donohue comments on the rise in exorcisms:

            The Christmas season has just begun, and so has the need for spiritual peace. By any measure, the number of troubled Americans, saddled with personal problems, is staggering. Some are so desperate as to seek ways to purge themselves of demons.

            Take the case of Gary Dale Mort. This Muncie, Indiana man recently kicked his wife out of their house and set it on fire. He was shot by police after he flashed what turned out to be a pellet gun; he was not seriously injured. Last year, he slammed his car into a store. When questioned, he said the crash was intentional, an act he attributed to his being possessed by a demon. He had sought, unsuccessfully, to get a priest to perform an exorcism.

            Is he possessed? Would an exorcism work? No one knows. Most of those who believe they are possessed are not; they suffer from a host of clinically diagnosed maladies. But not everyone can be helped by conventional psychiatric treatments. Some are indeed possessed and clearly benefit from an exorcism.

            Mike Mariani has written a splendid article on exorcisms in the December edition of The Atlantic. Well researched and composed, he points to survey data that indicate that roughly half of Americans believe in demonic possession, and an even higher number believe in the devil.

            In fact, Gallup polls show that in 1990 55 percent said they believed in the devil; the figure jumped to 70 percent in 2007. More recently, an article in England’s Catholic Herald noted that belief in God was declining in the West but belief in the devil remained strong.

            While religions other than Catholicism offer exorcisms, no institution has a richer tradition in dealing with them than the Catholic Church. Requests for exorcisms are spiking, leading to an increase in trained exorcists. Pope Francis is supportive of this mission, and is known to frequently speak about Satan.

            The devil works by pressuring a person to accept evil (demonic oppression), or by seizing control of a person’s body, speaking through him (demonic possession). Either way, the priest who confronts those who claim to be in the snares of the devil is trained to proceed with caution.

            Who are the most likely candidates for an exorcism? Approximately 8 in 10 are survivors of sexual abuse. [The Atlantic‘s Mike] Mariani explains why. “The exorcists — to be clear — aren’t saying sexual abuse torments people to such an extent that they come to believe they’re possessed; the exorcists contend that abuse fosters the conditions for actual demonic possession to take hold.”

            From a Catholic perspective, this is daunting. It suggests that those who do such evil acts as sexual abuse create the fodder that attracts the devil to victimize the victim again. If this is true, the offenders are responsible for much more than molestation, and will have to answer for it.

            © Copyright Original Source


            Last edited by shunyadragon; 11-21-2018, 09:55 PM.
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
              The Catholic League’s Bill Donohue, commenting on a recent Atlantic article about the rise in requests for exorcisms, says that’s wonderful news. In fact, exorcisms could be most helpful for victims of sexual abuse, who are obviously possessed by demons.​
              Shunya, pretty please, could you, for once, manage to accurately capture the gist of an article in your comments? Thanks.
              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
              sigpic
              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

              Comment


              • #37
                Could you also for once copy paste a weblink without breaking it.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Okay Shunyadragon, this has got to stop. You quote an article and then you intentionally and with full malice change the headline. You quote the article as saying

                  "Catholic League: Sexual Abuse Victims Attract Demons"

                  But its actually title is

                  "EXORCISMS SURGE"

                  I have a non-broken link to it here, so people can read it for themselves. https://www.catholicleague.org/exorcisms-surge/

                  This is slander Shunya.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                    Okay Shunyadragon, this has got to stop. You quote an article and then you intentionally and with full malice change the headline. You quote the article as saying

                    "Catholic League: Sexual Abuse Victims Attract Demons"

                    But its actually title is

                    "EXORCISMS SURGE"

                    I have a non-broken link to it here, so people can read it for themselves. https://www.catholicleague.org/exorcisms-surge/

                    This is slander Shunya.
                    Shuny lies again...
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                      Shunya, pretty please, could you, for once, manage to accurately capture the gist of an article in your comments? Thanks.
                      The Patheos take on The Atlantic article I think may be that to which shunya is referring, namely: "Catholic League: Sexual Abuse Victims Need Exorcisms Because They Attract Demons". The Atlantic article to which it's referring is linked within this article, so you can read it for yourself.

                      The conclusion Patheos reaches is a reasonable one in my view: "Abuse victims need counseling and actual help, not a priest whose sole job it is to eradicate evil that doesn’t even exist. It’s a solution to a problem of their own creation".

                      https://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/...ttract-demons/
                      Last edited by Tassman; 11-26-2018, 12:18 AM.
                      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                        The Patheos take on The Atlantic article I think may be that to which shunya is referring, namely: "Catholic League: Sexual Abuse Victims Need Exorcisms Because They Attract Demons". The Atlantic article to which it's referring is linked within this article, so you can read it for yourself.
                        Thanks. The headline used by "Friendly Atheist" (not Patheos, which is in no way responsible for users' content) isn't bad for a headline. You're not helping shunya by pointing out that he can't even keep his sources straight, adding to his unforced errors.
                        The conclusion Patheos reaches is a reasonable one in my view: "Abuse victims need counseling and actual help, not a priest whose sole job it is to eradicate evil that doesn’t even exist. It’s a solution to a problem of their own creation".

                        https://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/...ttract-demons/
                        I'm shocked, shocked, that you would think so.
                        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                        sigpic
                        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                          The Patheos take on The Atlantic article I think may be that to which shunya is referring, namely: "Catholic League: Sexual Abuse Victims Need Exorcisms Because They Attract Demons". The Atlantic article to which it's referring is linked within this article, so you can read it for yourself.
                          The Atlantic article didn't say "Catholic League: Sexual Abuse Victims Need Exorcisms Because They Attract Demons", Catholic League didn't say that either. It is the title of the Friendly Atheist article, and Shunya cross-pasted it onto the quote of the article.

                          I'm having a really hard time believing he did that on accidant. If it he did he's bordering on metal incoherence (which would surprise me that much).

                          The fact of the matter is that the title of the article on the Catholic Leage was "EXORCISM SURGE"

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                            The Atlantic article didn't say "Catholic League: Sexual Abuse Victims Need Exorcisms Because They Attract Demons", Catholic League didn't say that either. It is the title of the Friendly Atheist article, and Shunya cross-pasted it onto the quote of the article.

                            I'm having a really hard time believing he did that on accidant. If it he did he's bordering on metal incoherence (which would surprise me that much).

                            The fact of the matter is that the title of the article on the Catholic Leage was "EXORCISM SURGE"
                            This is part of the reason I used to get Shunya and Tassy confused with one another - they both seem to have a similar "anything goes" approach to "winning" their "debates".
                            "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              This is part of the reason I used to get Shunya and Tassy confused with one another - they both seem to have a similar "anything goes" approach to "winning" their "debates".
                              I pretty much check any source either of them give at this point. They either misrepresent what it says, or leave out stuff that contradicts the point they think it makes.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                I pretty much check any source either of them give at this point. They either misrepresent what it says, or leave out stuff that contradicts the point they think it makes.
                                But Tassy does it with GUSTO!
                                "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                                Comment

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