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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


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Atheism irrefutable.

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  • #16
    Originally posted by JimL View Post
    Okay, I'll bite. Why does the concept of 1+1=2 need a god to exist in order to be true? Or is that even what you're saying?
    The only thing that matters is the existence. Existence is what makes a thing true. Existence being is the sole reason 1 + 1 = 2.

    There is a fundamental self evident truth by which all other self evident truths are self evident. The uncaused existence.
    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
      First, what is the proof of God's existence?
      What needs proof of its existence is not God. Existence does not need proof. Uncaused existence does not need any God.

      Second, a name does not determine 'God`s identity being the self Existent existence.'
      There are two answers. One, unless God is the uncaused existence, there need not be any God at all. The second answer has to do with the Hebrew Name of God and it meaning. Strong'sHebrew [H3068] dictionary gives it as "self Existent or Eternal." In the Rational Bible, "Is."

      This a very circular assertion without and coherent argument.
      What are you referring to be this circular assertion?
      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by JimL View Post
        Okay, I'll bite. Why does the concept of 1+1=2 need a god to exist in order to be true? Or is that even what you're saying?
        No, the concept of 1+1=2 does not need a God.
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
          No, the concept of 1+1=2 does not need a God.
          It has existence. Uncaused existence. So unless uncaused Existence is not God, then yes, God being uncaused Existence would be the fundamental self evident truth by which all other self evident truths are self evident.
          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
            What steps do you think are being skipped? Umcaused existence needs no gods. And what ever needs proof of existence is not God.
            Step one, for starters - you have to have agreed upon assumptions OR you have to prove an assumption. Your entire argument rests on the assumption of God's existence. You are now in the position of having to find an atheist that will accept that premise as being true before beginning the argument.

            Then you have to prove that second assumption about God not needing proof of His existence (I don't even see the point in granting this - it goes no where and while technically true as worded, it's moot since God does provide proof of His existence*. Lots of it.).


































            This is where only club members can play - it's a mutually held assumption.
            "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

            "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

            My Personal Blog

            My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

            Quill Sword

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            • #21
              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
              It has existence. Uncaused existence. So unless uncaused Existence is not God, then yes, God being uncaused Existence would be the fundamental self evident truth by which all other self evident truths are self evident.
              Clarify - No, the concept of 1+1=2 does not need a God from the human perspective.

              Bold is simply an assertion of belief from the human perspective, and is only true IF God exists, and not related to whether the concept of 1+1=2 does not need a God
              Last edited by shunyadragon; 07-21-2018, 10:22 PM.
              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

              go with the flow the river knows . . .

              Frank

              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                It has existence. Uncaused existence. So unless uncaused Existence is not God, then yes, God being uncaused Existence would be the fundamental self evident truth by which all other self evident truths are self evident.
                Er, you do know that abstract concepts may not have existence, right?

                Yet ANOTHER assumption you are just poking in there without finding out if anyone else has an issue with it...
                "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                My Personal Blog

                My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                Quill Sword

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                  Clarify - No, the concept of 1+1=2 does not need a God from the human perspective.

                  Bold is simply an assertion of belief, and not related to whether the concept of 1+1=2 does not need a God
                  Um, all you did was state the counter argument - your argument is just as much an unsupported assertion as his is - and just as circular.
                  "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                  "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                  My Personal Blog

                  My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                  Quill Sword

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by JimL View Post
                    Okay, I'll bite. Why does the concept of 1+1=2 need a god to exist in order to be true? Or is that even what you're saying?
                    It wasn't what he was saying - but he's already dug himself deeper into this hole...

                    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                    "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                    My Personal Blog

                    My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                    Quill Sword

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                      The argument is simple, existence does not need proof.

                      As for God, He has an identity. The first commandment of the ten is who God is: "I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage."

                      God`s identity being the self Existent existence, which is the meaning of His Name.

                      The Apostle Paul said of God, "In Him we live and move and have our existence." (Acts 17:28a.)

                      The God of Israel is invisible and omnipresent. And the Son of God is His visible agent by which we who are redeemed know God (John 14:6; John 1:12-14, 18; Colossians 1:15, 18; 2 Corinthians 4:3-4; Hebrews 1:3, John 1:3-4, 9-10).
                      Your entire argument consists of assumptions...including the assumption that scriptural quotes are authoritative in and of themselves. They’re not. Assumptions need evidence to support them.
                      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                        The argument is simple
                        Yes, it is. Your argument is: "If I say it, then it is true." It doesn't get any simpler than that.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                          Um, all you did was state the counter argument - your argument is just as much an unsupported assertion as his is - and just as circular.
                          Actually no, I am not arguing for or against the existence of God.
                          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                          go with the flow the river knows . . .

                          Frank

                          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                            The only thing that matters is the existence. Existence is what makes a thing true. Existence being is the sole reason 1 + 1 = 2.

                            There is a fundamental self evident truth by which all other self evident truths are self evident. The uncaused existence.
                            Yes, but your identifying that uncaused existence as god is what's at question, so your assumption that a god is necessary in order that caused existences can be true is not an answer. Also, you're assuming that 1+1=2 is an existing thing, a caused thing. It isn't. Existence defines the math, which is abstract, math doesn't define existence.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                              Step one, for starters - you have to have agreed upon assumptions OR you have to prove an assumption.
                              Atheism irrefutable is a logically deduced system of belief as a basis that there cannot be any God or else that there is God and is what is really irrefutable here.

                              * Step 1. Nothingness never existed. Anything to exist would not be nothingness. An existence is in evidence. And nothing can come from nothing.

                              * Step 2. So therefore there was always something, an existence, an uncaused existence.

                              Before we go beyond these two steps. What do you agree or disagree with them alone. And that an existence is in evidence, as is our using logic. We are presuming them from the very beginning without proofs.


                              Your entire argument rests on the assumption of God's existence.
                              False. My starting presumption is uncaused existence. Now uncaused existence needs no proof and can be deduced from steps 1 & 2. [As for God, I have an unfair advantage of knowing Him before I even proposed steps 1 & 2. No one can honestly deny a thing that one knows.] Step 3 is an either or argument. But you have to agree with steps 1 & 2 first.

                              You are now in the position of having to find an atheist that will accept that premise as being true before beginning the argument.
                              Not really. An atheist has two choices. 1) There are only caused existences [Which logically requires an uncaused existence.] Or 2) that there is an uncaused existence. Which again would bring us to step 3.

                              Then you have to prove that second assumption about God not needing proof of His existence (I don't even see the point in granting this - it goes no where and while technically true as worded, it's moot since God does provide proof of His existence*. Lots of it.).
                              Again, this has to do with step 3. And that [uncaused] existence needs no proof.

                              In all classical arguments for proof of the "existence" of God, existence is presumed without its proof. Uncaused existence does not need any kind of God. [Part of the argument in step 3].

                              Now we need to first agree on both steps 1 and then step 2.
                              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by JimL View Post
                                Yes, but your identifying that uncaused existence as god is what's at question, so your assumption that a god is necessary in order that caused existences can be true is not an answer. Also, you're assuming that 1+1=2 is an existing thing, a caused thing. It isn't. Existence defines the math, which is abstract, math doesn't define existence.
                                A number of issues here. 1) Uncaused existence is the reason that there is anything. Like 1 + 1 = 2.
                                2) And uncaused cause is something other than uncaused existence even though both are uncaused. Cause requires an existence. Uncaused existence only requires itself.

                                3) Now as to the question of God. For starters, uncaused existence needs no God. . . .
                                Last edited by 37818; 07-22-2018, 10:56 AM.
                                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                                Comment

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