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Apologetics 301 Guidelines

If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you


This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


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Atheism irrefutable.

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
    Existence is not necessarily objective - . . .
    language is never objective. So? What is invisible and everywhere? Nothing?

    .
    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by 37818 View Post
      language is never objective. So? What is invisible and everywhere? Nothing?

      .
      Point out to me the number 2. Not two objects. Not "2" which is just a symbol of the number 2, but the actual number 2. We know it exists, we can use it in math. Where is it?

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        Point out to me the number 2. Not two objects. Not "2" which is just a symbol of the number 2, but the actual number 2. We know it exists, we can use it in math. Where is it?
        How would that show that there is actually God?
        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by 37818 View Post
          How would that show that there is actually God?
          Just showing you that all existence is not something objectively physical, like Teal said. Something can exist and not be "real" - like a number, or a feeling, or an idea.

          It is up to you to prove that God actually exists in reality if you want others to believe you. You can't merely pawn it off as "existence needs no proof"

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            Just showing you that all existence is not something objectively physical, like Teal said. Something can exist and not be "real" - like a number, or a feeling, or an idea.

            It is up to you to prove that God actually exists in reality if you want others to believe you. You can't merely pawn it off as "existence needs no proof"
            The physical existence we all experience is called spacetime. It has an apparent beginning [13.7 billion years ago]. That there was always an existence would be an uncaused existence by reason there was never nothingness [nothingness = never anything].

            Now the question of God. [Christians know God, the lost do not.]

            Uncaused existence does not need any kind of God. That being true, what does that tell you?
            Last edited by 37818; 07-25-2018, 04:18 PM.
            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
              Quit making me agree with Shuny! He understands fine (for once) - you are the one who doesn't understand the framework.
              You do not need understand framework (separate issue), to understand a terribly circular argument, and just plain bad logic.
              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

              go with the flow the river knows . . .

              Frank

              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                Now the question of God. [Christians know God, the lost do not.]
                Christians are wrong. See! I too can make bald assertions.

                Uncaused existence does not need any kind of God. That being true, what does that tell you?
                Neither does an eternal uncaused multiverse, "what does that tell you?"
                “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                  Uncaused existence does not need any kind of God. That being true, what does that tell you?
                  That uncaused existence existing is not an argument for the existence of God.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                    The physical existence we all experience is called spacetime. It has an apparent beginning [13.7 billion years ago]. That there was always an existence would be an uncaused existence by reason there was never nothingness [nothingness = never anything].

                    Now the question of God. [Christians know God, the lost do not.]

                    Uncaused existence does not need any kind of God. That being true, what does that tell you?
                    that your argument makes no sense?

                    Even if you can show this universe was caused, that doesn't prove God did it. It just means something existed prior to the universe. It could be an endless series of universes, or some eternal metaverse, or that we are just a computer generated universe made by space aliens in a universe that has always existed. Atheists will believe anything other than God.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                      Christians are wrong. See! I too can make bald assertions.
                      Yeah, without giving any specific reason. Two things need to be dealt with. 1) What is the Christian claim for knowing God. 2) On the premise that there is not any God, it simply is not possible to know a non existent being.

                      Neither does an eternal uncaused multiverse, "what does that tell you?"
                      In order for there to be any such uncaused "multiverse" there has to be uncaused existence for it to be uncaused. And as it is our known universe is made up of many caused things. As I said, an uncaused existence does not need any kind of God.
                      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                        Yeah, without giving any specific reason. Two things need to be dealt with. 1) What is the Christian claim for knowing God.
                        Faith.

                        2) On the premise that there is not any God, it simply is not possible to know a non existent being.
                        True as the sky is Carolina blue on the 4th of July on a clear day at noon.

                        In order for there to be any such uncaused "multiverse" there has to be uncaused existence for it to be uncaused. And as it is our known universe is made up of many caused things. As I said, an uncaused existence does not need any kind of God.
                        True. The fact that existence has 'caused things' does not preclude the existence of an uncaused multiverse.
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                          Faith.
                          So you believe one can meet someone by merely believing one did.






                          True. The fact that existence has 'caused things' does not preclude the existence of an uncaused multiverse.
                          So you think mere existence is cause.
                          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                            You do not need understand framework (separate issue), to understand a terribly circular argument, and just plain bad logic.
                            Granted, but framework seems to be where he's stuck.
                            "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                            "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                            My Personal Blog

                            My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                            Quill Sword

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by crepuscule View Post
                              That uncaused existence existing is not an argument for the existence of God.
                              It can be - it's a valid supporting argument but isn't, of course, proof - that's part of where he's getting off track...
                              "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                              "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                              My Personal Blog

                              My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                              Quill Sword

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                Just showing you that all existence is not something objectively physical, like Teal said. Something can exist and not be "real" - like a number, or a feeling, or an idea.

                                It is up to you to prove that God actually exists in reality if you want others to believe you. You can't merely pawn it off as "existence needs no proof"



                                Not touching it, Bible is confused enough as it is....


                                (Pssst! A little more metaphysical, actually - your's works but isn't what I actually meant.)
                                "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                                "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                                My Personal Blog

                                My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                                Quill Sword

                                Comment

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