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  • Originally posted by robrecht View Post
    If I ever get around to publishing my thesis, I think it will convince you.
    I would be happy to read it! Mark is my favorite complete Gospel. But, maybe that's just because I helped produce a local version of Godspell in college.

    NORM
    When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu

    Comment


    • Originally posted by NormATive View Post
      Knowing how anal retentive my ancestors were about keeping records, I still think it is peculiar that there is absolutely no mention of this holiday trial in any Jewish literature or documents of the period.
      Again: not a formal trial, hence no record of a trial.

      Comment


      • Robrecht, I noticed you didn't reply to NORM's claim that "Jesus would have been considered a Pharisee, since he believed in an afterlife". I know that claim has been bandied about by some scholars in the past, but it doesn't seem like a widely accepted one. What are your views?

        NORM, in post #325 you wrote, "Knowing how anal retentive my ancestors were about keeping records, I still think it is peculiar that there is absolutely no mention of this holiday trial in any Jewish literature or documents of the period." But in post #322 you wrote, "Keep in mind that there is no corresponding testimony in Jewish records from that time period (the Talmud was being compiled at this time)." Outside of Josephus (who obviously didn't record everything that happened in the first century) where do you feel we should find records of an event like this (outside of New Testament material, of course)?

        In post #329 you wrote, "Forgers of the Middle Ages, we've been discovering of late, seem to confirm the existence of such persons." I don't doubt that there may have existed Medieval forgers (I suppose it depends on how you define "forgery"), but just out of curiosity, what are you referring to here?
        Last edited by OingoBoingo; 05-05-2014, 09:06 AM.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by OingoBoingo View Post
          Robrecht, I noticed you didn't reply to NORM's claim that "Jesus would have been considered a Pharisee, since he believed in an afterlife". I know that claim has been bandied about by some scholars in the past, but it doesn't seem like a widely accepted one. What are your views?
          I responded as much as we are able. There is significant debate about who the Pharisees were, how accurately they are portrayed in the gospels, and, most importantly, in my opinion, how monolithic or diverse they were with respect to their halakhot and apocalyptic perspectives. I think Jesus fits in fairly well with some conceptions of some Pharisees, but I tend to think he was more of a renegade and even more difficult to categorize than your average Pharisee, whatever that was. The very same maxim was considered to be the foundation of both the Sadducee and Pharisee schools of thought so interpretation is not so easy, even at that time, let alone 2,000 years hence.
          βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
          ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

          אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

          Comment


          • Originally posted by robrecht View Post
            I responded as much as we are able. There is significant debate about who the Pharisees were, how accurately they are portrayed in the gospels, and, most importantly, in my opinion, how monolithic or diverse they were with respect to their halakhot and apocalyptic perspectives. I think Jesus fits in fairly well with some conceptions of some Pharisees, but I tend to think he was more of a renegade and even more difficult to categorize than your average Pharisee, whatever that was. The very same maxim was considered to be the foundation of both the Sadducee and Pharisee schools of thought so interpretation is not so easy, even at that time, let alone 2,000 years hence.
            Ok, thank you.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by NormATive View Post
              Knowing how anal retentive my ancestors were about keeping records, I still think it is peculiar that there is absolutely no mention of this holiday trial in any Jewish literature or documents of the period.
              The temple records went up in flames a generation later. You think that just might have had an impact on what records we have available today?
              Interestingly, Josephus does mention Jesus - however briefly. But, this trial is not mentioned.
              Source: Josephus


              And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross. . . .

              © Copyright Original Source


              Is the first part of this not arguably a reference to the trial? Surely there was some sort of confabulation of the "principal men" before appearing before Pilate. Do you think they met without interrogating Jesus?
              Last edited by One Bad Pig; 05-05-2014, 10:59 AM.
              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
              sigpic
              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

              Comment


              • The thugs must have been watching the infamous Mel Gibson movie.
                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k47O0bRdSDg
                “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                “not all there” - you know who you are

                Comment


                • Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                  The thugs must have been watching the infamous Mel Gibson movie.
                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k47O0bRdSDg
                  Very nice to see this Muslim intervening against such an ignorant attack.
                  βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                  ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                  אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by OingoBoingo View Post
                    NORM, in post #325 you wrote, "Knowing how anal retentive my ancestors were about keeping records, I still think it is peculiar that there is absolutely no mention of this holiday trial in any Jewish literature or documents of the period." But in post #322 you wrote, "Keep in mind that there is no corresponding testimony in Jewish records from that time period (the Talmud was being compiled at this time)." Outside of Josephus (who obviously didn't record everything that happened in the first century) where do you feel we should find records of an event like this (outside of New Testament material, of course)?
                    Obviously; Flavious Josephus, the most prolific documenter of Jewish history. Jewish Antiquities contains the so-called Testimonium Flavianum, which briefly mentions Jesus before Pilate, but does not mention the Sanhedrin trial during a holiday. Tacitus also briefly mentions "Christus" before Pilate, but no mention of a Sanhedrin trial or the Barabbas exchange:

                    Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.
                    Interestingly, Josephus' account of the stoning of James DOES mention a trial before the Sanhedrin (not during a holiday even!!). In fact, in the Biblical account, the members of the Sanhedrin actually start throwing the stones!

                    Originally posted by OingoBoingo View Post
                    In post #329 you wrote, "Forgers of the Middle Ages, we've been discovering of late, seem to confirm the existence of such persons." I don't doubt that there may have existed Medieval forgers (I suppose it depends on how you define "forgery"), but just out of curiosity, what are you referring to here?
                    I was referring to the Gospel of Jesus' Wife, which has proven to be an 8th Century forgery.

                    NORM
                    When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                      Is the first part of this not arguably a reference to the trial? Surely there was some sort of confabulation of the "principal men" before appearing before Pilate. Do you think they met without interrogating Jesus?
                      Yes, those probably are the words of Josephus. I think Eusebius' redactions begin in the next two paragraphs. Principal Men is not the same as Sanhedrin. If it were the Sanhedrin, he would have said so - as in his recounting of the stoning of James.

                      NORM
                      When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by NormATive View Post
                        Obviously; Flavious Josephus, the most prolific documenter of Jewish history. Jewish Antiquities contains the so-called Testimonium Flavianum, which briefly mentions Jesus before Pilate, but does not mention the Sanhedrin trial during a holiday. Tacitus also briefly mentions "Christus" before Pilate, but no mention of a Sanhedrin trial or the Barabbas exchange:



                        Interestingly, Josephus' account of the stoning of James DOES mention a trial before the Sanhedrin (not during a holiday even!!). In fact, in the Biblical account, the members of the Sanhedrin actually start throwing the stones!
                        Right. Josephus would probably be our only source on the trial, and as I pointed out, he didn't cover everything in the 1st century. So outside of Josephus, we probably wouldn't expect details of the trial. You're correct that Tacitus mentions Jesus and Pilate, but it seems unlikely that Tacitus would mention (or even have access to the details) of a slap-dash Jewish trial by the Sanhedrin.

                        I was referring to the Gospel of Jesus' Wife, which has proven to be an 8th Century forgery.
                        Okay, that's what I figured. Just so's you know, the Jesus Wife fragment isn't a medieval forgery. So far the evidence points to it being a modern forgery using medieval (7th-9th century) materials. The evidence for it being a 21st century forgery is that both the Jesus Wife fragment as well as the John's Gospel fragment (that was found in the same collection) were directly copied (down to the line breaks) from modern publications on the Gospel of Thomas and the Gospel of John (both of which were posted online within the last 10 years). We have a whole thread dedicated to this discussion in case you're interested in the nitty gritty details. http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...blished/page10

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by NormATive View Post
                          Yes, those probably are the words of Josephus. I think Eusebius' redactions begin in the next two paragraphs. Principal Men is not the same as Sanhedrin. If it were the Sanhedrin, he would have said so - as in his recounting of the stoning of James.

                          NORM
                          Curious, who do you believe were the "principal men" that Josephus had in mind?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by NormATive View Post
                            Interestingly, Josephus' account of the stoning of James DOES mention a trial before the Sanhedrin (not during a holiday even!!). In fact, in the Biblical account, the members of the Sanhedrin actually start throwing the stones!
                            The Bible doesn't record the stoning of James.

                            I was referring to the Gospel of Jesus' Wife, which has proven to be an 8th Century forgery.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by NormATive View Post
                              Yes, those probably are the words of Josephus. I think Eusebius' redactions begin in the next two paragraphs. Principal Men is not the same as Sanhedrin. If it were the Sanhedrin, he would have said so - as in his recounting of the stoning of James.

                              NORM
                              I'm [also] curious what other principal men there would be.
                              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                              sigpic
                              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                                The Bible doesn't record the stoning of James.
                                Even though Josephus is a turncoat, he is a more reliable source than anything in the Bible (historically speaking, as usual).
                                “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                                “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                                “not all there” - you know who you are

                                Comment

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