Announcement

Collapse

Apologetics 301 Guidelines

If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you


This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Paul’s basket escape from Damascus (Robert Eisenman)

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
    Eisenman’s point is that the version in Acts makes no sense because Paul was supposedly sent to Damascus in the first place by the Jewish High Priest.
    He was indeed sent. But when he got there, he did the exact opposite of what he was supposed to do. Instead of arresting Christians, he publicly defended them in debate "by proving that Jesus was the Christ," which was the proposition he was supposed to be stamping out, not promulgating. This would have earned him the ire of his former Jewish associates, who would then have used all the means at their disposal to shut him up: legal means, like complaining to the governor that Paul was inciting unrest. And illegal means, like "watching the gates day and night in order to kill him."

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by RBerman View Post
      Handling vipers would indeed be an example of flouting the commonsense secondary means by which God normatively protects us from harm. On what basis does one determine whether an act is a "simple demonstration of fearlessness" as opposed to "an arrogant challenge to God"?
      What is your rubric? Do you have some special insight into the ins and outs of the situation described tersely in Scripture concerning Damascus?
      My rubric seems to be yours. Handling vipers and drinking poison you acknowledge as flouting. The bible doesn't identify it as flouting. Biblically, it's a proof of something, not a "testing" of God. Paul didn't hide in a basket because he was afraid of tempting God. He was mainly driven by primitive instinct. Why wasn't he afraid to tempt God in the case bringing the nodder offer back to life? Perhaps because it was a proof of something surely God could get behind.

      I just don't see how God wouldn't have been equally supportive of Paul's walking out of the town openly and courageously. That sounds a lot more dignified than handling an asp like an idiot.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
        I’ve been listening to the excellent Professor Robert Eisenman and I am currently reading one of his books about James, the brother of Jesus. He mentions this example of anti-Semitism in the Bible. One escape, two different accounts: In 2 Corinthians 11, Paul escapes from a representative of King Aretas, but in Acts 9, he escapes from Jews who want to kill him. Either Paul escapes from Damascus twice or Acts is shifting history into anti-Semitism.

        I would like this thread to be about the work and ideas of Prof. Robert Eisenman. This is a starting point. Particularly if you have read any of his works I am interested to know what you think and whether these and similar ideas are penetrating the twenty-first century Christian zeitgeist. Eisenman has a youtube channel here:
        http://www.youtube.com/user/EisenmanLecture
        I am not familiar with Eisenman, but I am conscious of the subtle anti-semitism of the Christian Testament. For example, the story of Judas (a clever play on the aramaic word for "Jew") was added to build up the story line that Jewish leaders conspired to "frame" Jesus and get rid of an inconvenient truth - namely that Jesus was a failed messiah.

        It is very subtle, as you can tell by the commentary within this thread. Most Christians are starkly unaware of its existence. Of course, they believe that their religion is an "enhancement" to Judaism, so why are we surprised?

        In most synagogues and Jewish communities, no one really dwells on the anti-semitism of the Christian Testament - except when some fool makes a movie highlighting the really bad parts!!

        NORM
        When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by whag View Post
          My rubric seems to be yours. Handling vipers and drinking poison you acknowledge as flouting. The bible doesn't identify it as flouting. Biblically, it's a proof of something, not a "testing" of God. Paul didn't hide in a basket because he was afraid of tempting God. He was mainly driven by primitive instinct. Why wasn't he afraid to tempt God in the case bringing the nodder offer back to life? Perhaps because it was a proof of something surely God could get behind.

          I just don't see how God wouldn't have been equally supportive of Paul's walking out of the town openly and courageously. That sounds a lot more dignified than handling an asp like an idiot.
          The Bible never encourages people to handle asps. (No, not even at the end of Mark, though it's sometimes taken that way wrongly.) Paul was bitten by an asp and suffered no ill effect, but he wasn't trying to handle an asp. You have no basis to say what Paul was thinking when he hid in a basket; all the text says is that he did.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by NormATive View Post
            I am not familiar with Eisenman, but I am conscious of the subtle anti-semitism of the Christian Testament. For example, the story of Judas (a clever play on the aramaic word for "Jew") was added to build up the story line that Jewish leaders conspired to "frame" Jesus and get rid of an inconvenient truth - namely that Jesus was a failed messiah.
            Judas was a common first century name. The New Testament gives eight different people with that name, one of whom is Jesus' brother and an author of a book of the New Testament! Not exactly the thing to do if you were fabricating a lie to make Jews look bad.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by RBerman View Post
              The Bible never encourages people to handle asps. (No, not even at the end of Mark, though it's sometimes taken that way wrongly.)
              I didn't say the bible encouraged believers to do that. But the lord said it, so i realize I gave a bad example. Obviously if he tells them to do it, then they're not testing him. My bad.



              Paul was bitten by an asp and suffered no ill effect, but he wasn't trying to handle an asp. You have no basis to say what Paul was thinking when he hid in a basket; all the text says is that he did.
              True. You also have no basis to say he hid in a basket so as not to test God by leaving openly. Like Sean said, it's more likely that Paul acted in obeisance to his primal instinct to live.

              Paul had nothing to fear whether he was hiding in baskets or walking toward his attackers. He was appointed to complete a task.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by RBerman View Post
                He was indeed sent. But when he got there, he did the exact opposite of what he was supposed to do. Instead of arresting Christians, he publicly defended them in debate "by proving that Jesus was the Christ," which was the proposition he was supposed to be stamping out, not promulgating. This would have earned him the ire of his former Jewish associates, who would then have used all the means at their disposal to shut him up: legal means, like complaining to the governor that Paul was inciting unrest. And illegal means, like "watching the gates day and night in order to kill him."
                In his own words, Paul does not tell us why he was in Damascus or why he was being chased by the Arab King Aretas. What you are claiming here is that when it comes to Paul’s testimony, we are to prefer Luke. So Luke knows better than Paul, what happened to Paul. That is clearly a ridiculous position to take. Why would Paul be quiet about it?

                “James and his Jerusalem Assembly are able to go on functioning relatively without disturbance in the Jerusalem of the 40s to the 60s CE, while an individual like Paul can hardly set foot in the city without being mobbed – this because of fear of the Jewish populace as a whole, among whom individuals like James, John the Baptist and presumably Jesus (if he was anything like them), appear to have been very popular. Paul’s escape from the representatives of the Arab King Aretas down the walls of Damascus in a basket, by his own testimony in 2 Corinthians 11: 32– 33, also bears this out (for Acts’ picture of parallel events, it is the Jews from whom Paul is escaping). This is the same ‘Arab King’ whom, according to Josephus , the Jewish common people saw as taking vengeance on the Herodians for the death of John the Baptist in the mid 30s, the same period in which Paul admits to having ‘persecuted’ those of ‘the Way’ even ‘unto death’.”

                Eisenman, Robert (2012-10-11). James the Brother of Jesus: The Key to Unlocking the Secrets of Early Christianity and the Dead Sea Scrolls (Kindle Locations 13793-13801). Watkins Publishing LTD. Kindle Edition.
                “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                “not all there” - you know who you are

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                  In his own words, Paul does not tell us why he was in Damascus or why he was being chased by the Arab King Aretas. What you are claiming here is that when it comes to Paul’s testimony, we are to prefer Luke. So Luke knows better than Paul, what happened to Paul. That is clearly a ridiculous position to take. Why would Paul be quiet about it?
                  It's not a matter of "being quiet" as if avoiding talking about something. Paul's words on the matter in 2 Corinthians are part of a laundry list of difficult situations he's endured. He doesn't give details about any of them because telling a complete story about any of those situations is not his point.

                  Luke has a different purpose; he gives more detail about several of the things that Paul mentions only briefly, including the Damascus basket episode. Luke was a traveling companion of Paul and had plenty of time to learn the details that he relates in Acts not only about the basket, but about all the other things that happened to Paul before the two met. Luke had explained his process and purpose at the beginning of his gospel narrative:
                  Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile a narrative of the things that have been accomplished among us, just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word have delivered them to us, it seemed good to me also, having followed all things closely for some time past, to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, that you may have certainty concerning the things you have been taught. (Luke 1:1-4)

                  “James and his Jerusalem Assembly are able to go on functioning relatively without disturbance in the Jerusalem of the 40s to the 60s CE, while an individual like Paul can hardly set foot in the city without being mobbed – this because of fear of the Jewish populace as a whole, among whom individuals like James, John the Baptist and presumably Jesus (if he was anything like them), appear to have been very popular. Paul’s escape from the representatives of the Arab King Aretas down the walls of Damascus in a basket, by his own testimony in 2 Corinthians 11: 32– 33, also bears this out (for Acts’ picture of parallel events, it is the Jews from whom Paul is escaping). This is the same ‘Arab King’ whom, according to Josephus , the Jewish common people saw as taking vengeance on the Herodians for the death of John the Baptist in the mid 30s, the same period in which Paul admits to having ‘persecuted’ those of ‘the Way’ even ‘unto death’.”

                  Eisenman, Robert (2012-10-11). James the Brother of Jesus: The Key to Unlocking the Secrets of Early Christianity and the Dead Sea Scrolls (Kindle Locations 13793-13801). Watkins Publishing LTD. Kindle Edition.
                  Who says that the Church was unmolested in Jerusalem from the 40s to the 60s? Not the Bible. It shows the Church as popular with the Jewish commoners but molested by the Jewish leaders from the get-go, which would make perfect sense if they were the followers of an executed man.
                  And as [Peter and John] were speaking to the people, the priests and the captain of the temple and the Sadducees came upon them, greatly annoyed because they were teaching the people and proclaiming in Jesus the resurrection from the dead. And they arrested them and put them in custody until the next day, for it was already evening... they called them and charged them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus... And when they had further threatened them, they let them go, finding no way to punish them, because of the people, for all were praising God for what had happened. For the man on whom this sign of healing was performed was more than forty years old. (Acts 4)

                  But the high priest rose up, and all who were with him (that is, the party of the Sadducees), and filled with jealousy they arrested the apostles and put them in the public prison... and when they had called in the apostles, they beat them and charged them not to speak in the name of Jesus... (Acts 5)

                  And Stephen, full of grace and power, was doing great wonders and signs among the people. Then some of those who belonged to the synagogue of the Freedmen (as it was called), and of the Cyrenians, and of the Alexandrians, and of those from Cilicia and Asia, rose up and disputed with Stephen. But they could not withstand the wisdom and the Spirit with which he was speaking. Then they secretly instigated men who said, “We have heard him speak blasphemous words against Moses and God.” And they stirred up the people and the elders and the scribes, and they came upon him and seized him and brought him before the council, and they set up false witnesses who said, “This man never ceases to speak words against this holy place and the law..." Then they cast him out of the city and stoned him. (Acts 7-8)

                  And Saul approved of his [Stephen's] execution. And there arose on that day a great persecution against the church in Jerusalem, and they were all scattered throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles. Devout men buried Stephen and made great lamentation over him. But Saul was ravaging the church, and entering house after house, he dragged off men and women and committed them to prison. Now those who were scattered went about preaching the word. (Acts 8)

                  But Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest and asked him for letters to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.(Acts 9)

                  Now those who were scattered because of the persecution that arose over Stephen traveled as far as Phoenicia and Cyprus and Antioch, speaking the word to no one except Jews. (Acts 11)

                  About that time Herod the king laid violent hands on some who belonged to the church. He killed James the brother of John with the sword, and when he saw that it pleased the Jews, he proceeded to arrest Peter also. This was during the days of Unleavened Bread. And when he had seized him, he put him in prison, delivering him over to four squads of soldiers to guard him, intending after the Passover to bring him out to the people. (Acts 12)

                  As you can see, the persecutions had been going on before Saul/Paul even became a believer in Jesus and was so bad that the rank and file of the Jerusalem Church were "all scattered throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria." Recording these details is not "anti-Semitic" any more than a description of the Napoleonic Wars is "anti-French." What happened, happened.

                  Nor was Josephus a disinterested third party, but a polemicist eager to portray the Jews as a cooperative people who would fit well into the mainstream of Roman society. Just out of curiosity, are you prepared to accept everything Josephus says unquestioningly? At any rate, Josephus is clear that Aretas' behavior with respect to Herod's party was driven both by personal and political issues rather than some abstract sense of justice to protect John the Baptist as a prophet:
                  About this time Aretas, the king of Petra, and Herod the Tetrarch had a quarrel on account of the following. Herod the tetrarch had married the daughter of Aretas and had lived with her a great while; but once when he was on his way to Rome he lodged with his half-brother, also named Herod but who had a different mother, the high priest Simon's daughter. There he fell in love with Herodias, this latter Herod's wife, who was the daughter of their brother Aristobulus and the sister of Agrippa the Great.

                  This man ventured to talk to her about a marriage between them; she accepted, and an agreement was made for her to come to him as soon as he should return from Rome, one condition of this marriage being that he should divorce Aretas's daughter. So when he had made this agreement, he sailed to Rome; but when he had finished there and returned again, his wife, having discovered the agreement he had made with Herodias, and before he knew that she knew of the plan, asked him to send her to Machaerus, a place on the border between the territories of Aretas and Herod, without informing him of any of her intentions.

                  Accordingly Herod sent her there, thinking his wife had not perceived anything. But she had sent messages a good while before to Machaerus, which had been under the control of her father, and so all things necessary for her escape were made ready for her by the general of Aretas's army. By that means she soon came into Arabia, under the conduct of the several generals, who carried her from one to another successively; and soon she came to her father and told him of Herod's intentions.

                  Aretas made this the start of his enmity toward Herod. He also had a quarrel with him about their boundaries in the area of Gabalis. So they raised armies on both sides and prepared for war, sending their generals to fight instead of themselves. And when they had joined battle, all Herod's army was destroyed by the treachery of some fugitives who, though they were of the tetrarchy of Philip and joined the army, betrayed him. So Herod wrote about these affairs to Emperor Tiberius, who was very angry at the attempt made by Aretas and wrote to Vitellius to make war upon him and either to take him alive, and bring him in chains, or to kill him, and send him his head. This was the command that Tiberius gave to the governor of Syria. (Josephus, Antiquities 18.5.1 109-115)

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by RBerman View Post
                    Luke has a different purpose;
                    I agree that Luke has a different purpose. That is why he has come up with a different version of the story. The different reasons for the basket escape are not additive in the way you suggest. If you ask what Paul was escaping from you get two different complete answers. The possibility of there being other factors at play is not mentioned by either author. If you do add the two versions together you end up with a third version with is not in either account.
                    Last edited by firstfloor; 04-18-2014, 10:27 AM.
                    “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                    “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                    “not all there” - you know who you are

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                      I agree that Luke has a different purpose. That is why he has come up with a different version of the story. The different reasons for the basket escape are not additive in the way you suggest. If you ask what Paul was escaping from you get two different complete answers. The possibility of there being other factors at play is not mentioned by either author. If you do add the two versions together you end up with a third version with is not in either account.
                      I see no reason to suppose that he "has come up with a different version of the story," as if his work were a fabrication rather than the careful historical work it purports to be. Indeed, it would be remarkable for two accounts of the same event, written for different purposes, to emphasize all the same points.

                      You skipped most of my post, though. What do you think about Josephus' account in light of my quotation of him? What do you think about the Acts record of persecution prior to 60AD? What do you think about the issue of anti-Semitism?

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by whag View Post
                        True. You also have no basis to say he hid in a basket so as not to test God by leaving openly. Like Sean said, it's more likely that Paul acted in obeisance to his primal instinct to live. Paul had nothing to fear whether he was hiding in baskets or walking toward his attackers. He was appointed to complete a task.
                        Nor would it be wrong to follow common sense and eschew the more dangerous path unless necessary. The point is that it would not have been a lack of faith for Paul to take the safer path, all other things being equal.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          A terrible storm came into a town and local officials sent out an emergency warning that the riverbanks would soon overflow and flood the nearby homes. They ordered everyone in the town to evacuate immediately.

                          A faithful Christian man heard the warning and decided to stay, saying to himself, “I will trust God and if I am in danger, then God will send a divine miracle to save me.”

                          The neighbors came by his house and said to him, “We’re leaving and there is room for you in our car, please come with us!” But the man declined. “I have faith that God will save me.”

                          As the man stood on his porch watching the water rise up the steps, a man in a canoe paddled by and called to him, “Hurry and come into my canoe, the waters are rising quickly!” But the man again said, “No thanks, God will save me.”

                          The floodwaters rose higher pouring water into his living room and the man had to retreat to the second floor. A police motorboat came by and saw him at the window. “We will come up and rescue you!” they shouted. But the man refused, waving them off saying, “Use your time to save someone else! I have faith that God will save me!”

                          The flood waters rose higher and higher and the man had to climb up to his rooftop.

                          A helicopter spotted him and dropped a rope ladder. A rescue officer came down the ladder and pleaded with the man, "Grab my hand and I will pull you up!" But the man STILL refused, folding his arms tightly to his body. “No thank you! God will save me!”

                          Shortly after, the house broke up and the floodwaters swept the man away and he drowned.

                          When in Heaven, the man stood before God and asked, “I put all of my faith in You. Why didn’t You come and save me?”

                          And God said, “Son, I sent you a warning. I sent you a car. I sent you a canoe. I sent you a motorboat. I sent you a helicopter. What more were you looking for?”

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                            I’ve been listening to the excellent Professor Robert Eisenman and I am currently reading one of his books about James, the brother of Jesus. He mentions this example of anti-Semitism in the Bible. One escape, two different accounts: In 2 Corinthians 11, Paul escapes from a representative of King Aretas, but in Acts 9, he escapes from Jews who want to kill him. Either Paul escapes from Damascus twice or Acts is shifting history into anti-Semitism.

                            I would like this thread to be about the work and ideas of Prof. Robert Eisenman. This is a starting point. Particularly if you have read any of his works I am interested to know what you think and whether these and similar ideas are penetrating the twenty-first century Christian zeitgeist. Eisenman has a youtube channel here:
                            http://www.youtube.com/user/EisenmanLecture
                            I won't have time to read this thread for a while, but did want to let you know that a friend of mine did his doctoral work under Eisenman. I have read a little bit of his stuff, and know a little more indirectly through my friend. He seems like a brilliant guy, in the sense of coming up with some very creative interpretations, and even if only a fraction of them were right, that would be quite an accomplishment, but he is in no way in the mainstream of critical scholarship with respect to his theory of the relationship of the first Christians with Qumran or about James as the Beloved Disciple in the fourth gospel. I started to watch the first video you posted in the other thread and noted that he was making some careless errors, I think mainly because he is primarily interested in his own theory. Personally, I like the idea of James being ultimately behind the idea of the Beloved Disciple, but it is only one hypothesis among several others, none of which can be proven. I also agree with him about how Qumran texts can be more useful toward understanding the earliest Christians than is oftentimes acknowledged by other critical scholars, but his identifications are way too specific in my opinion. His brilliance can be enlightening even when he is wrong.
                            βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                            ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                            אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by RBerman View Post
                              You skipped most of my post, though. What do you think about Josephus' account in light of my quotation of him? What do you think about the Acts record of persecution prior to 60AD? What do you think about the issue of anti-Semitism?
                              Still reading and researching. I will come back to it.
                              “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                              “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                              “not all there” - you know who you are

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                                A terrible storm came into a town and local officials sent out an emergency warning that the riverbanks would soon overflow and flood the nearby homes. They ordered everyone in the town to evacuate immediately.

                                A faithful Christian man heard the warning and decided to stay, saying to himself, “I will trust God and if I am in danger, then God will send a divine miracle to save me.”

                                The neighbors came by his house and said to him, “We’re leaving and there is room for you in our car, please come with us!” But the man declined. “I have faith that God will save me.”

                                As the man stood on his porch watching the water rise up the steps, a man in a canoe paddled by and called to him, “Hurry and come into my canoe, the waters are rising quickly!” But the man again said, “No thanks, God will save me.”

                                The floodwaters rose higher pouring water into his living room and the man had to retreat to the second floor. A police motorboat came by and saw him at the window. “We will come up and rescue you!” they shouted. But the man refused, waving them off saying, “Use your time to save someone else! I have faith that God will save me!”

                                The flood waters rose higher and higher and the man had to climb up to his rooftop.

                                A helicopter spotted him and dropped a rope ladder. A rescue officer came down the ladder and pleaded with the man, "Grab my hand and I will pull you up!" But the man STILL refused, folding his arms tightly to his body. “No thank you! God will save me!”

                                Shortly after, the house broke up and the floodwaters swept the man away and he drowned.

                                When in Heaven, the man stood before God and asked, “I put all of my faith in You. Why didn’t You come and save me?”

                                And God said, “Son, I sent you a warning. I sent you a car. I sent you a canoe. I sent you a motorboat. I sent you a helicopter. What more were you looking for?”
                                In that "average man" case, you are correct.


                                Paul being the apostle to the gentles nullifies any danger. Even if his pursuers found him in the basket, Paul wasn't in danger.


                                His life was never in peril in any case, though he perceived it was. That's interesting.

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by whag, 03-27-2024, 03:01 PM
                                39 responses
                                185 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post whag
                                by whag
                                 
                                Started by whag, 03-17-2024, 04:55 PM
                                21 responses
                                132 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                                Started by whag, 03-14-2024, 06:04 PM
                                80 responses
                                428 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post tabibito  
                                Started by whag, 03-13-2024, 12:06 PM
                                45 responses
                                305 views
                                1 like
                                Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                                Started by rogue06, 12-26-2023, 11:05 AM
                                406 responses
                                2,517 views
                                2 likes
                                Last Post tabibito  
                                Working...
                                X