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Paul’s basket escape from Damascus (Robert Eisenman)

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  • Originally posted by whag View Post
    You mean chastisement of Pilate by Caesar. Your propositional ignorance is showing. =)
    A mere typo isn't ignorance of grammar

    Not knowing what a zealot is is. Which isn't a fault in and of itself, I'd be the first to admit that I don't know enough about the Jews of the period.
    Last edited by Paprika; 05-01-2014, 01:55 AM.

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    • Originally posted by RBerman View Post
      So blasphemy was the sin that concerned them, and Jesus' testimony satisfied them that the accusation was justified.
      That is what the stories say, yes. But it is not all they say. The stories also say that they were concerned about how the Romans would react if they did nothing to silence him.

      And if they were satisfied (as the stories say they were) that his own words convicted him of blasphemy, then, if we are to believe Acts' story about Stephen, they were perfectly free to go ahead and stone him themselves.

      Originally posted by RBerman View Post
      (Keep in mind, this was the first time Jesus had met the guys at the top of the Jewish religious food chain, and vice versa.)
      They must have had some prior reason to suspect that they could make a blasphemy charge stick. What reason? What, according to the stories, had they heard about him to make them think he was a blasphemer, or that he could be made to seem like a blasphemer?

      Originally posted by RBerman View Post
      But as previously noted, before Pilate, the charge was claiming to be "King of the Jews," i.e. a charge of insurrection. Jesus subsequently admitted to Pilate that he was King of the Jews, with the opaque caveat that his kingdom was "not of this world."
      OK, according to the stories, the priests charged him before Pilate with claiming to be king of the Jews. What, according to the stories, made them think the charge might stick? Were they expecting Jesus to confirm the charge with his own words? If so, why? What, according to the stories, had he said or done that led them to think that he not only actually considered himself king of the Jews, but was prepared to say so to Pilate's face?
      Last edited by Doug Shaver; 05-01-2014, 01:56 AM.

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      • Originally posted by Paprika View Post
        My point of quoting the gospels is that they depict Jesus as admitting to Pilate that he was a king.
        My point is that the story about the Sanhedrin trial is not credible. I don't see how anything that happened at the Pilate trial is relevant to that.

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        • Originally posted by Paprika View Post
          All right. I merely thought that you might be interested in presenting your view of the matter.
          I might be, if someone starts another thread on that subject.

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          • Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
            My point is that the story about the Sanhedrin trial is not credible. I don't see how anything that happened at the Pilate trial is relevant to that.
            Well, earlier you said - amongst other things - that
            And I'm still looking for the evidence that the priests were using to support their accusation. Real evidence. Manufactured evidence. Whatever. Or did they expect Pilate to just take their word for it when they said, "This man claims to be our rightful king"?
            Then, you seemed perfectly willing to talk about Pilate's trial as depicted by the gospels, and whether it likely happened. If you don't want to do so now, fine, but I think you're aware that since the events of the two trials were so close, it is difficult to criticise the depiction of the earlier event as being improbable based partly on the recounted actions or motives not seeming consistent, without taking into account how these supposedly improbably actions or motives were depicted to play out in the later trial.
            Last edited by Paprika; 05-01-2014, 02:11 AM.

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            • Originally posted by Paprika View Post
              Well, earlier you said - amongst other things - that
              And I'm still looking for the evidence that the priests were using to support their accusation. Real evidence. Manufactured evidence. Whatever. Or did they expect Pilate to just take their word for it when they said, "This man claims to be our rightful king"?
              Then, you seemed perfectly willing to talk about Pilate's trial as depicted by the gospels, and whether it likely happened.
              So, you think that with those words, I was trying to shift our debate from the Sanhedrin trial to the Pilate trial? Think again. I was inquiring into the thinking of the priests during the Sanhedrin trial. Perhaps I should be more explicit. I'll phrase my question this way: Or did they, at the time they were conducting their own trial, expect Pilate to just take their word for it when they said, "This man claims to be our rightful king"?

              Originally posted by Paprika View Post
              If you don't want to do so now, fine, but I think you're aware that since the events of the two trials were so close, it is difficult to criticise the depiction of the earlier event as being improbable based partly on the recounted actions or motives not seeming consistent, without taking into account how these supposedly improbably actions or motives were depicted to play out in the later trial.
              I can be flexible. If you can demonstrate the relevance, go ahead. But if you're going to claim that the priests knew exactly what Jesus was going to say to Pilate, I'll need to see some evidence showing how they were capable of knowing his intentions in such detail.

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              • Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
                So, you think that with those words, I was trying to shift our debate from the Sanhedrin trial to the Pilate trial? Think again. I was inquiring into the thinking of the priests during the Sanhedrin trial. Perhaps I should be more explicit. I'll phrase my question this way: Or did they, at the time they were conducting their own trial, expect Pilate to just take their word for it when they said, "This man claims to be our rightful king"?
                It's unlikely they expected Pilate to "take their word for it".

                I can be flexible. If you can demonstrate the relevance, go ahead. But if you're going to claim that the priests knew exactly what Jesus was going to say to Pilate, I'll need to see some evidence showing how they were capable of knowing his intentions in such detail.
                I've never made such a claim.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                  It's unlikely they expected Pilate to "take their word for it".
                  Then what reason did they have for thinking they could get rid of Jesus by making that accusation against him?
                  Last edited by Doug Shaver; 05-01-2014, 04:23 AM.

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                  • Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
                    Then what reason did they have for thinking they could get rid of Jesus by making that accusation against him?
                    If, as the stories go, Jesus admitted to that accusation in front of them, they have become eyewitnesses to such a claim. Moreover, if Jesus was willing to admit to it in front of them, they might well have considered it likely that Jesus would do so to Pilate.

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                    • Originally posted by Doug Shaver
                      Then what reason did they have for thinking they could get rid of Jesus by making that accusation against him?
                      Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                      If, as the stories go, Jesus admitted to that accusation in front of them, they have become eyewitnesses to such a claim.
                      According to the stories, they never asked him, and he did not say to them, whether he was, or believed himself to be, the king of the Jews. All they cared about, according to the stories, was whether he was a blasphemer.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
                        According to the stories, they never asked him, and he did not say to them, whether he was, or believed himself to be, the king of the Jews.

                        The high priest asked him if he was the Messiah. And we're agreed that many Jews saw the Messiah as a warrior king.

                        All they cared about, according to the stories, was whether he was a blasphemer.
                        I would be interested to see if you can show that Jesus as blasphemer was "all" they cared about.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                          The high priest asked him if he was the Messiah. And we're agreed that many Jews saw the Messiah as a warrior king.
                          It doesn't matter what many Jews believed. What matters, for the story's credibility, is what the Sanhedrin believed and what reasons they could have had for believing it.

                          Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                          I would be interested to see if you can show that Jesus as blasphemer was "all" they cared about.
                          I doubt that I can show it to your satisfaction, but that's how I read the story. As soon as he said something that they could construe as blasphemous, they concluded their proceedings and took him to Pilate. That tells me that they didn't care about anything else.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
                            It doesn't matter what many Jews believed. What matters, for the story's credibility, is what the Sanhedrin believed and what reasons they could have had for believing it.
                            Indeed, but given that you agree that many Jews read Messiah as "warrior king", how can you say that "they never asked him, and he did not say to them, whether he was, or believed himself to be, the king of the Jews"?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                              Indeed, but given that you agree that many Jews read Messiah as "warrior king", how can you say that "they never asked him, and he did not say to them, whether he was, or believed himself to be, the king of the Jews"?
                              We're talking about the story of the Sanhedrin trial as that story was written in the canonical gospels. In that story, the priests never asked Jesus whether he was either a warrior or a king, and he never said to them that he was. If they were fishing for something they could use as grounds for accusing him to Pilate of being a seditionist, they would have known that a mere claim of messiahship would not be sufficient. They would have known that they needed an admission that he specifically intended to lead an armed revolt against Rome, or some other evidence that he had such an intention.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
                                We're talking about the story of the Sanhedrin trial as that story was written in the canonical gospels. In that story, the priests never asked Jesus whether he was either a warrior or a king, and he never said to them that he was.
                                If, as you say, many Jews did consider Messiah to mean a warrior king, put together with the fact that the high priest asked Jesus if he was the Messiah, can you rule out that the high priest had a warrior king in mind when he asked that question?

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