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  • Seems to be a lot of personal incredulity goin' on 'round here


    Perhaps an illustration might help:


    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

    Comment


    • Originally posted by JimL View Post
      You think you're making sense out of it, but that's because you're so deeply invested in it, you so desperately want it to make sense, but it just doesn't.
      You can't make sense out of it, because you so desperately want to believe it does not make sense, but it just does.
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
        You can't make sense out of it, because you so desperately want to believe it does not make sense, but it just does.
        No, I can't make sense out of it because you can't make sense out of concept that doesn't make sense, you think that you can make sense of it because, well, that's just how your brains work. It's like your support for Trump, he can lie, rip you off, fill the swamp with his theiving cronies, all right in front of your faces and yet you're forever in denial. That's just the way your brains work!

        Comment


        • Originally posted by JimL View Post
          No, I can't make sense out of it because you can't make sense out of concept that doesn't make sense, you think that you can make sense of it because, well, that's just how your brains work. It's like your support for Trump, he can lie, rip you off, fill the swamp with his theiving cronies, all right in front of your faces and yet you're forever in denial. That's just the way your brains work!
          Jim, explain the difference between a person and a god. And why those terms are not the same.

          The fact remains the trinity explanation exists. Prove that explanation cannot possibly be true. Give the logic carefully. Step by step. Prove one simple contradiction in the explanation for your assertion that explanation is contradictory.
          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

          Comment


          • Originally posted by JimL View Post
            No, I can't make sense out of it...
            That doesn't make it illogical.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by JimL View Post
              No, I can't make sense out of it...
              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              That doesn't make it illogical.
              That is what I meant by personal incredulity


              Source: Argument from Incredulity


              (also known as: argument from personal astonishment, argument from personal incredulity, personal incredulity)

              Description: Concluding that because you can't or refuse to believe something, it must not be true, improbable, or the argument must be flawed. This is a specific form of the argument from ignorance.



              Source

              © Copyright Original Source



              Source: personal incredulity


              Because you found something difficult to understand, or are unaware of how it works, you made out like it's probably not true.



              Source

              © Copyright Original Source



              The last source should interest jimmy since the explanation and example concerns rejection of biological evolution

              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

              Comment


              • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                That is what I meant by personal incredulity


                Source: Argument from Incredulity


                (also known as: argument from personal astonishment, argument from personal incredulity, personal incredulity)

                Description: Concluding that because you can't or refuse to believe something, it must not be true, improbable, or the argument must be flawed. This is a specific form of the argument from ignorance.



                Source

                © Copyright Original Source



                Source: personal incredulity


                Because you found something difficult to understand, or are unaware of how it works, you made out like it's probably not true.



                Source

                © Copyright Original Source



                The last source should interest jimmy since the explanation and example concerns rejection of biological evolution
                Yeah
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • A single particle existing in multiple places at the same time? So called "virtual particles" just popping into and out of existence all willy nilly? Quantum mechanics is full of all sorts of illogical nonsense. Clearly it's all a load of garbage.

                  Comment


                  • Notice how Tassman and JimL has to caricaturize and distort, both by distortion and by equivocating between definition of words (e.g. using God to denote a person, when it's actually used to denote the divine essence), what the Trinity actually teaches in order for them to support their claim that the teaching contains logical contradictions. Their understanding of the doctrine is literally worse than Sunday school children's.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                      Notice how Tassman and JimL has to caricaturize and distort, both by distortion and by equivocating between definition of words (e.g. using God to denote a person, when it's actually used to denote the divine essence), what the Trinity actually teaches in order for them to support their claim that the teaching contains logical contradictions. Their understanding of the doctrine is literally worse than Sunday school children's.
                      Muslims tend to have the same issues.
                      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                      sigpic
                      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                        Notice how Tassman and JimL has to caricaturize and distort, both by distortion and by equivocating between definition of words (e.g. using God to denote a person, when it's actually used to denote the divine essence), what the Trinity actually teaches in order for them to support their claim that the teaching contains logical contradictions. Their understanding of the doctrine is literally worse than Sunday school children's.
                        There no need to distort or caricaturize Trinity dogma in order to show it is contradictory. Whatever one says it still has the problem of being both “One” and “Three” simultaneously. According to the Athanasian Creed:

                        “The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited …” “So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God…” “And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. …” etc, etc, etc.

                        About Jesus, it says: “Perfect God; and perfect Man …” “Who although he is both God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ”.

                        Unlike the unambiguous declaration of monotheism in the Koran, the doctrine of the Trinity is not at all clearly monotheistic. It took four centuries to arrive at this doctrine...all because monotheistic Jews wanted to preserve their god’s monotheism PLUS say that Jesus and the Holy Spirit was god too.
                        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                          There no need to distort or caricaturize Trinity dogma in order to show it is contradictory.
                          Then why do you keep doing it?

                          Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                          Whatever one says it still has the problem of being both “One” and “Three” simultaneously.
                          "One" and "Three" in what way? One God and three Gods simultaneously? One Person and three Persons simultaneously? One Person and three Gods simultaneously? One God and three Persons simultaneously? Only one of these is what the doctrine of the trinity actually teaches, and there's nothing contradictory about it.


                          Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                          According to the Athanasian Creed:

                          “The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited …” “So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God…” “And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. …” etc, etc, etc.
                          Ok, so where do you see any contradiction?

                          Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                          About Jesus, it says: “Perfect God; and perfect Man …” “Who although he is both God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ”.
                          Again, where is the contradiction?

                          Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                          Unlike the unambiguous declaration of monotheism in the Koran, the doctrine of the Trinity is not at all clearly monotheistic. It took four centuries to arrive at this doctrine...all because monotheistic Jews wanted to preserve their god’s monotheism PLUS say that Jesus and the Holy Spirit was god too.
                          Your point being what? The various creeds of Christian orthodoxy were written as a response to the various heresies that had arisen during the history of the Church. If these heresies had arisen earlier then the finalized trinitarian doctrine would have been arrived at earlier.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                            Then why do you keep doing it?
                            Trinitarian doctrine is in itself a caricature, without the need of my help.

                            "One" and "Three" in what way? One God and three Gods simultaneously? One Person and three Persons simultaneously? One Person and three Gods simultaneously? One God and three Persons simultaneously? Only one of these is what the doctrine of the trinity actually teaches, and there's nothing contradictory about it.
                            If Jesus is an "unlimited, almighty, and perfect" member of the Trinity, as doctrine states, why are there so many scriptural passages that suggest he’s an ordinary man and not God? E.g. “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.” (Matt. 26:39) AND “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.” (John 20:17).

                            Ok, so where do you see any contradiction?
                            Seriously! Three is not “one” and one is not “three”.

                            Again, where is the contradiction?
                            Again: Three is not “one” and one is not “three

                            Your point being what? The various creeds of Christian orthodoxy were written as a response to the various heresies that had arisen during the history of the Church. If these heresies had arisen earlier then the finalized trinitarian doctrine would have been arrived at earlier.
                            Correct, the creeds of Christian orthodoxy were indeed written as a response to the various heresies that had arisen during the history of the Church. And these heresies had arisen because the status of Jesus vis-à-vis God was never clear nor spelt out.
                            “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                              If Jesus is an "unlimited, almighty, and perfect" member of the Trinity, as doctrine states, why are there so many scriptural passages that suggest he’s an ordinary man and not God? E.g. “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.” (Matt. 26:39) AND “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.” (John 20:17).
                              The One who became the man Jesus was always someone else than God being "with God" (John 1:1-2). He was the sole agent of cause (John 1:3) on behalf of God, making Him always God too (John 1:1, 3, 18).
                              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                                Trinitarian doctrine is in itself a caricature, without the need of my help.
                                You realize, I hope, that this does not in any way anwer his question. If the doctrine fails on its own merits, why are you incapable of presenting it as such?
                                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                                sigpic
                                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                                Comment

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