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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


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  • #91
    Originally posted by Starlight View Post
    Honestly I've come to view these sorts of claims from conservative Christians on this forum as being a kind of psychological defense mechanism. If someone has a view they don't like, then that person must be either dumb or uniformed, and so there follows a wild oscillation between the two assertions.
    Am I the only politically liberal orthodox Christian on TWeb?

    Does that mean that I am stupid now?
    Last edited by element771; 04-17-2018, 08:19 AM.

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by Starlight View Post
      You're not going to like this...

      But I think TWeb actually has a surfeit of riches when it comes to highly intelligent atheist posters, and I think that Jimmy and Tassman are actually about a hundred times better than you give them credit for.

      Jimmy likes to read the news and likes to post the latest democrat consensus talking point that he's got from MSNBC or NYT or wherever as his view in Civics. So he's mostly posting fairly mainstream and solid sensible statements. And in response he seems to get told he's an idiot even more than I do. I'm seen you MM and Sparko and a few others team up to tell him he's stupid for a whole page solid after he's posted some sort of run-of-the-mill not-particularly-controversial pan-standard Democrat-leaning opinion that any normal person would take from attentively listening to the news from a variety of sources. Jimmy doesn't do much at all in the way of controversial out-there opinions in the way I do, he tends to stick solidly to basic talking points and does it well. And yet you guys seem to still lose it in his direction on a regular basis... it's bizarre to watch.

      Tassman varies between a Jimmy-like solid posting of standard news items from liberal sources and standard liberal views, to having developed some of his own views and defending them sensibly. Even when I don't agree with Tassman's views (e.g. on morality where he argues evolutionary herd behavior is the origin and center-point of it) he still sets forth his views in a totally intelligent and reasonable way that forces me to agree that he is intelligent and rational even when disagreeing with him.
      Fascinating. Smart because.... posting standard Democrat/left talking points? Also, don't recall JimL ever causing me to 'lose it' in his general direction. I have been guilty of not taking his posts seriously; having been bit once or twice, I try not to make that mistake.

      I agree, we have many quite intelligent atheist posters here - just not at all convinced these two qualify.
      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
      sigpic
      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
        If Jesus had been condemned to death by the Jewish authorities but they were prevented from carrying out judicial execution, then it is possible that the Roman authorities took the matter into their own hands, if they felt that Jesus was a threat. It is not likely that they were executing Jews just to ingratiate themselves with the Jewish authorities.

        David Buckel’s death is both extraordinary and honorable and the self-sacrifice ought to strike a chord of recognition with Christians.

        In fact, Christians have devalued the death of Jesus by their resurrection myth; the temporary suffering of the man-god is joyfully celebrated for what Christians get out of the deal they suppose was made for their exclusive benefit.
        Contra starlight, I'm going to lump you with the Brights. You're just that good at trolling.
        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
        sigpic
        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by Starlight View Post
          He's referring to the fact that the falling piano that broke the camels back for me was the widespread Christian opposition to gay rights. As a liberal Christian I had always seen Christianity as the defender of the oppressed and supporter of minorities and so supportive of things like LGBT rights, and so I expected most Christian groups to be like Canada's largest protestant denomination (United Church of Canada) in calling on their government to support same-sex marriage. So I was shocked at the strength of the conservative Christian opposition to LGBT rights, and the forcefulness with which such horrific views were promoted in the public sphere in the name of Christianity. And it was at that point that I ended up doing a more thorough evaluation of whether I really thought Christianity was contributing positively to the world or wanted to be associated with it in any way (answers: no). Even now that about half of denominations seem to have back-peddled on the issue, their behavior still doesn't impress me much.

          I think when he talks about my 'lifestyle' being in conflict with Christianity he's implying that I live 'the gay lifestyle' () and that I chose this over my Christianity. Sadly no, I'm actually single and don't get out enough to meet many people never-mind live any kind of exciting-sounding gay lifestyle. Most of the rest of what OBP seems to be claiming he knows about me but can't talk about is weirdly inaccurate as well to the point where I don't even know what he's referring to in several of his posts. Maybe he's confusing me with someone else?
          How could you NOT know that Christianity thinks homosexual behavior is a sin? It says it in the bible in several places and has been a historically held view for over 2000 years (more if you count Judaism)

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by Starlight View Post
            Well D.E. is obviously the 2nd most intelligent TWebber.

            Honestly I get told I'm stupid here on such a constant basis - it's not unusual to see multiple posts per page alleging that I'm stupid - that I usually do feel a little push-back is in order. Alleging that I'm stupid seems to be the go-to for some posters here when they can't address the substance of the arguments being made.

            Do I have an overly-high opinion of my own abilities? Sure. Most people generally do. Am I an egotistical jerk? Totally. Am I stupid though? Hardly. So it's weird and amusing to see how often the "you're stupid!" gets trotted out here.
            I don't think you are stupid. I think you are intelligent. Just dumb - not wise. Naive in many areas. And you suffer from a mild case of Dunning-Kruger in thinking you are an expert in various areas where you are not. But then we all probably have that curse to some extent.

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by Starlight View Post
              You're not going to like this...

              But I think TWeb actually has a surfeit of riches when it comes to highly intelligent atheist posters, and I think that Jimmy and Tassman are actually about a hundred times better than you give them credit for.

              Jimmy likes to read the news and likes to post the latest democrat consensus talking point that he's got from MSNBC or NYT or wherever as his view in Civics. So he's mostly posting fairly mainstream and solid sensible statements. And in response he seems to get told he's an idiot even more than I do. I'm seen you MM and Sparko and a few others team up to tell him he's stupid for a whole page solid after he's posted some sort of run-of-the-mill not-particularly-controversial pan-standard Democrat-leaning opinion that any normal person would take from attentively listening to the news from a variety of sources. Jimmy doesn't do much at all in the way of controversial out-there opinions in the way I do, he tends to stick solidly to basic talking points and does it well. And yet you guys seem to still lose it in his direction on a regular basis... it's bizarre to watch.

              Tassman varies between a Jimmy-like solid posting of standard news items from liberal sources and standard liberal views, to having developed some of his own views and defending them sensibly. Even when I don't agree with Tassman's views (e.g. on morality where he argues evolutionary herd behavior is the origin and center-point of it) he still sets forth his views in a totally intelligent and reasonable way that forces me to agree that he is intelligent and rational even when disagreeing with him.

              And then there's people like Lao Tzu, and Carpedm, who have a well-educated background and are very informed and thoughtful and love calm rational point-by-point discussion.

              Then there's the PhDs: Roy (IIRC), SoR, myself. Okay, us three do spend quite a lot of time mocking you guys, because we generally don't think much of you or your arguments, but you do have us.

              So aside from the couple of trolls who I don't tend to pay attention to / understand their posts (FirstFloor and Whag) and Shunny (who says he's a buddhist), I would say all the regular atheist posters here are above average in intelligence and many of them in the top 1%. This site has managed to gain a selection of really high-quality atheist posters, far in excess of what I would say it deserves.


              I'll agree that there are certain field crossings that are unusual - e.g. between hard and soft sciences, or between sciences and arts. The combination of fields I majored in was quite unusual for pretty much that reason. One of my majors was in philosophy by the way.



              Well I'll agree with the part where I don't realize I'm making errors. I suggest the reason for that is because I'm not actually making any errors. And I'll point out again that I did a major in philosophy, so do you want to revise your claim that I'm outside my field, and perhaps claim I'm dumb instead?

              Honestly I've come to view these sorts of claims from conservative Christians on this forum as being a kind of psychological defense mechanism. If someone has a view they don't like, then that person must be either dumb or uniformed, and so there follows a wild oscillation between the two assertions.
              I agree with almost everything you said with the exception of JimL and Tassman. Either they are as dumb as rocks or they are intelligent trolls who like to act dumb as rocks. I haven't made up my mind about that yet. Shuny is intelligent but so stuck in his ways and habits that he is easy to predict and he tends to overstate his position. Firstfloor is intelligent but he definitely is a troll and likes to play and poke the bear. Charles seems to be either a young teen or someone who has no common sense and also likes to troll and follow you guys around like a puppy dog nipping at other people's heels.

              Comment


              • #97
                I'm smarter than everybody here.

                We can know this by observing the fact that nobody else shares my enthusiasm for Grand Sumo (aka the greatest sport ever).
                I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

                Comment


                • #98
                  Why no mention of Ap or Mr Holding? Or for that matter Rumtum. They are some of the smartest people here.
                  sigpic

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                    And I'll point out again that I did a major in philosophy
                    /r/iamverysmart

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by SL
                      Then there's the PhDs: Roy (IIRC), SoR, myself. Okay, us three do spend quite a lot of time mocking you guys, because we generally don't think much of you or your arguments, but you do have us.
                      Aren't we lucky to have you.



                      Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                        /r/iamverysmart
                        #metoo

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by brain doesn't go past the firstfloor View Post
                          If Jesus had been condemned to death by the Jewish authorities but they were prevented from carrying out judicial execution, then it is possible that the Roman authorities took the matter into their own hands, if they felt that Jesus was a threat. It is not likely that they were executing Jews just to ingratiate themselves with the Jewish authorities.

                          David Buckel’s death is both extraordinary and honorable and the self-sacrifice ought to strike a chord of recognition with Christians.

                          In fact, Christians have devalued the death of Jesus by their resurrection myth; the temporary suffering of the man-god is joyfully celebrated for what Christians get out of the deal they suppose was made for their exclusive benefit.
                          Nothing extraordinary or honorable about a mentally ill person committing suicide. Buckel deserves our sympathy, not our respect, and his death is in no way analogous to the crucifixion of Jesus.
                          Last edited by Mountain Man; 04-17-2018, 11:20 AM.
                          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                          Than a fool in the eyes of God


                          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            How could you NOT know that Christianity thinks homosexual behavior is a sin? It says it in the bible in several places and has been a historically held view for over 2000 years (more if you count Judaism)
                            Given his flamboyant response and his refusal to even tell me in private what facts I said were allegedly wrong, I suspect I scored a direct hit.
                            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                            sigpic
                            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                              I've never seen "nobody would die for lie" used as a general argument for Christianity. Rather, it's to counter a specific "weird skeptical argument" that the apostles were a bunch of con-men who knew what they were saying wasn't true. The counter argument that "liars make poor martyrs" obviously doesn't prove that what they believed was true, but it's not intended to; it's only meant so show that they sincerely believed it.
                              Then I think you have not been looking. I have encountered MANY who claim that the martyrdom of the apostles is proof that the claims about Jesus are true (resurrection, miracles, etc.) because "no one would die for a lie." Evidence, maybe. Proof? No. There are simply too many other credible (IMO) possibilities.
                              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                                I can remember during the Vietnam war a Budhist monk sat down in the lotus position, poured gasoline over himself, lit it, and just sat there quietly as he burned to death in the hopes of ending the war. I'm assuming that he believed in the afterlife as well.
                                Presumably, he believed the war was wrong and needed to end.


                                ETA: According to CP's subsequent post, however, I am wrong about that.
                                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

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