Originally posted by Tassman
View Post
Announcement
Collapse
Apologetics 301 Guidelines
If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less
Nobody Dies for a Lie
Collapse
X
-
"What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
-
Originally posted by Tassman View PostThese Isaiah passages had NEVER, during the millennia of their existence, been interpreted by the Jews as predicting the future Messiah. And they still aren't. It was only after the event, when strict monotheist Jews wanted to say Jesus was God too, that the followers of Jesus took them to refer to Jesus."What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
Comment
-
Originally posted by Littlejoe View PostAs the saying goes..."Hind sight is 20/20".
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostBless your heart.“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Littlejoe View PostYes, they are Jewish Scriptures, but Christian believe we were grafted into the Nation of Israel by Jesus, thereby making them ours (Christians) as well.
Romans 11:17 - But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree,
And we are considered adopted sons, which as you know means Full kinship in the family.
Ephesians 1:5 English Standard Version (ESV)...In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
JewsForJesus.org, messainicapologetics.net, and oneforisrael.org all disagree with this exegesis from your source. Obviously the Jews can't see Jesus in this passage as they would then have to acknowledge Jesus as the Messiah. Also obvious is that your sources are Jewish and have a pro-Jewish and an anti-Christian bias and mine are ALSO Jewish but have a pro-Christian bias and are also pro-Jewish. The reason God Almighty is not used here IMO is that Jesus isn't God Almighty, that's the Fathers role. He is however Mighty God. The Mighty Arm of God...
From https://jewsforjesus.org/publication...-son-is-given/ :
The two verses discussed here deal specifically with Messiah’s origin, both human and divine...
Divine Origin—9:6b
In 9:6b, this son is given four names, each one having two parts. Each of these names is applicable to God; three of them exclusively so:
These four names are all used elsewhere in the Book of Isaiah and in each case they are used of God, never of man.
1. Wonderful Counselor
This can be found in Isaiah 25:1: ” . . . I will praise thy name; for thou hast done wonderful things, [even] counsels of old . . .” and in Isaiah 28:29, “This also cometh forth from Jehovah of hosts, who is wonderful in counsel . . .”
2. Mighty God
This is found in the very next chapter in Isaiah 10:21, ” . . . to the mighty God.” There are many liberal theologians who object to the concept of Messiah as a God-Man. When they translate verses such as Isaiah 9:6 they are forced to interfere with the text in order to justify their own presuppositions. In the New English Bible, for example, an entire phrase — completely absent in the Hebrew text—is inserted to make Isaiah 9:6 read, “in battle he will be God*like.” This is an impossible translation. In the Hebrew there are only two words, El Gibbor, which mean “God Almighty.” Furthermore, when exactly the same words appear in Isaiah 10:21, the NEB then translates them correctly as ” . . . the mighty God.” Clearly there is no integrity in such inconsistent translation.
3. Eternal Father
This can be compared with Isaiah 63:16b, ” . . . thou, O Jehovah, art our Father; our Redeemer from everlasting is thy name.” The same words used in Isaiah 9:6 as a proper name are seen within this sentence where they are clearly used of God.
4. Prince of Peace
Isaiah 26:3 says, “The steadfast of mind Thou wilt keep in perfect peace . . .” The object and subject of the sentence is God himself. Again in Isaiah 26:12, the work of peace is attributed to God: “Lord, Thou wilt establish peace for us . . .” As stated above, the fourth name, “the Prince of Peace,” is sometimes used of men in the Hebrew text. If we limit our attention to the book of Isaiah, however, then the work of peace is the work of God only.
As you can see, Isaiah never uses these Hebraic Words of God for men.
from messianicapologetics.net:
http://messianicapologetics.net/archives/18715
The second title the Messiah is to have, asks some immediate questions about His nature, as it is El gibor or “Mighty God.” This is a title used of God proper in Isaiah 10:21: “A remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, to the mighty God [el-El gibbor].” In the estimation of John N. Oswalt, “Wherever ʼēl gibbôr occurs elsewhere in the Bible there is no doubt that the term refers to God (10:21; cf. also Deut. 10:17[2]; Jer. 32:18[3]).”[4]
There were, in the Ancient Near East and classical Greco-Roman worlds, likely many kings and aristocrats who identified along the lines of being considered deified as “gods,” even though they were only mortal. When it comes to the Messiah, however, whose origins are certainly something beyond corporeal (Micah 5:2)—and with the spiritual and religious culture of Ancient Israel and Second Temple Judaism being decisively subversive to paganism—would the Messiah’s being titled as El Gibbor or “Mighty God” imply His being anything other than God? Isaiah 9:6 could have just said that the Messiah would be gibbor, “strong, mighty” (BDB),[5] akin to “mighty one,” and thusly one simply empowered by God or who had a special relationship with God. But when the title El gibbor, actually used of God proper, is a title possessed by the Messiah, then it is something which suggests something more than a supernatural yet created origin of Him; it suggests that the Messiah is, Himself, integrated into the Divine Identity.
From oneforisrael.org :
https://www.oneforisrael.org/bible-b...day-of-midian/
The Day of Midian, it turns out, has everything to do with the coming and birth of Yeshua! It’s worth taking a look at that verse in Isaiah 9 again in context –
“The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light; those who dwelt in a land of deep darkness, on them has light shined. You have multiplied the nation; you have increased its joy; they rejoice before you as with joy at the harvest, as they are glad when they divide the spoil. For the yoke of his burden, and the staff for his shoulder, the rod of his oppressor, you have broken as on the day of Midian. For every boot of the tramping warrior in battle tumult and every garment rolled in blood will be burned as fuel for the fire. For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and forevermore. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will do this.”...
Yes, Yeshua came into this fallen world, weak and vulnerable as a baby, brought God’s light and salvation to all who call upon him. The incarnation, the Son that was given, is like the Day of Midian, in that God is telling us we cannot do it ourselves. He delights to save us in our weakness as we trust and lean into him for salvation.
None of which earns him the right to be called names of God and/or divine.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
-
Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostJews or Jesus et al are not Jewish sources.
Who We Are | What We Believe | What We Do
Jews for Jesus is a global nonprofit made up primarily of Jewish people from different backgrounds who have all come to believe that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah. It is our passion to share this belief with our Jewish people around the world.
They were founded by a Jewish man, Dr. Moise Rosen:
The phrase “Jews for Jesus” began as a simple slogan in the early 1970s, coined by the media. It became the rallying cry of a movement, and eventually, the name of the organization founded in 1973 by Dr. Moishe Rosen. Starting as a small cadre of young Jewish believers in Jesus in the Haight-Ashbury District of San Francisco, the organization grew globally, and in 1996, David Brickner stepped in as executive director.
They claim to be Jewish:
Do you identify as Jews or Christians?The term “Christian” derives from the Greek word Christos, a translation of the biblical term “Mashiach,” or Messiah. Christian literally means “follower of Messiah.” All of the first Christians were Jewish – just like Jesus. So yes, we’re Christians. We’re also Jewish.
We believe in truth in advertising. All of our missionary staff are born Jewish or married to Jewish people. Within our organization, we embrace Jewish culture, practice and symbols because they reflect who we are as Jewish people. Jews for Jesus also uses Jewish symbols in the same way Jesus himself did—to explain biblical truth.
https://jewsforjesus.org/about-who-we-are
Burden of proof is on you!
ETA: You very well may have an argument for the messianicapologetics site, but not the other two.Last edited by Littlejoe; 05-29-2018, 08:35 AM."What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
Comment
-
Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post<snip>
If you attempt to apply the concepts we know inside this universe to the universe itself (or anything "before" or "outside" the universe, if those terms even mean anything), you make an assumption you cannot substantiate. The best we can say is "we don't know." We do not know if the entire concept of causation is simply about how this universe functions, or if it is a concept that transcends the universe.
Our universe is in evidence.
Ultimately there is an uncaused something which requires there to be uncaused existence. Causation whether unique or of infinite causes without first cause - there is for it uncaused existence.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
Comment
-
Originally posted by 37818 View PostAnything "beyond" our known and testable or observable universe is effectively "beyond" nature or may even be deemed "supernatural."
Our universe is in evidence.
Ultimately there is an uncaused something which requires there to be uncaused existence. Causation whether unique or of infinite causes without first cause - there is for it uncaused existence.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
Comment
-
Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostWithin this universe...this principle makes sense. However, we do not know if it applies to the universe itself. I have to admit I would like to think it does - but you are trying to apply a concept we know to be true inside the universe to the universe itself. As I said before, the best we can say about such things is, "we don't know.". . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
Comment
-
Originally posted by 37818 View PostOK. Now I am not understanding something here. I understand uncaused existence needs beyond itself, whether anything else or not anything else.
But we do not know if this concept of physics has any applicability "beyond" this universe or applies to the universe itself. We know, within this universe, that each thing - or each event - has a cause. We reason from that to the problem of infinite causation. But that only is known within the universe.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
Comment
-
Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post37818 - you'r entire argument about causality is based on our physical experience of causality within this universe. We have no experience of a thing that is not caused by another thing.
But we do not know if this concept of physics has any applicability "beyond" this universe or applies to the universe itself. We know, within this universe, that each thing - or each event - has a cause. We reason from that to the problem of infinite causation. But that only is known within the universe.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
Comment
-
Originally posted by 37818 View PostExistence precedes anything else what ever it might be. [Uncaused] Existence. There cannot be anything else without [uncaused] existence.
...which is my point....
Your entire argument assumes that this concept is true absolutely...but it is actually based on your causal experience within this universe....The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
Comment
-
Originally posted by Littlejoe View PostYou're entitled to your opinion, I do not agree.
Who We Are | What We Believe | What We Do
Jews for Jesus is a global nonprofit made up primarily of Jewish people from different backgrounds who have all come to believe that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah. It is our passion to share this belief with our Jewish people around the world.
They were founded by a Jewish man, Dr. Moise Rosen:
The phrase “Jews for Jesus” began as a simple slogan in the early 1970s, coined by the media. It became the rallying cry of a movement, and eventually, the name of the organization founded in 1973 by Dr. Moishe Rosen. Starting as a small cadre of young Jewish believers in Jesus in the Haight-Ashbury District of San Francisco, the organization grew globally, and in 1996, David Brickner stepped in as executive director.
They claim to be Jewish:
Do you identify as Jews or Christians?The term “Christian” derives from the Greek word Christos, a translation of the biblical term “Mashiach,” or Messiah. Christian literally means “follower of Messiah.” All of the first Christians were Jewish – just like Jesus. So yes, we’re Christians. We’re also Jewish.
We believe in truth in advertising. All of our missionary staff are born Jewish or married to Jewish people. Within our organization, we embrace Jewish culture, practice and symbols because they reflect who we are as Jewish people. Jews for Jesus also uses Jewish symbols in the same way Jesus himself did—to explain biblical truth.
https://jewsforjesus.org/about-who-we-are
Burden of proof is on you!
ETA: You very well may have an argument for the messianicapologetics site, but not the other two.
I simply believe in the Jewish world view of Monotheism as reflected in contemporary Judaism, which reject the Jews for Jesus movement as not really Jewish and mostly represents non-Jewish believers. I may post some Jewish understanding of these scriptures from a very old now lost web.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
-
For example the Jewish view of the Messiah
Hebrew description from a Jewish perspective
There is a large difference between the Hebrew word מוֹשִׁיעִים(One’s saving) and מָּשִׁיחַ (Anointed one) as we so see in the BDB.
מוֹשִׁיעִים is a derivative of yasha or rather…….
H3467
ישׁע
yâsha‛
BDB Definition:
1) to save, be saved, be delivered
1a) (Niphal)
1a1) to be liberated, be saved, be delivered
1a2) to be saved (in battle), be victorious
1b) (Hiphil)
1b1) to save, deliver
1b2) to save from moral troubles
1b3) to give victory to
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number: 929
That derivation is so shown in one of the plural forms of H4190 in Ps 68:20 in the KJV as “salvation’s” or “Saving acts”. This example pointing to the acts themselves and not the one doing, or being used, to perform the saving acts…….
H4190
מושׁעה
môshâ‛âh
BDB Definition:
1) saving act, deliverance
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H3467
Same Word by TWOT Number: 929d
What we see in Neh 9:27 is מוֹשִׁיעִים which in this plural form points out those who are used for the purpose of performing act’s of physical salvation. Saving a people from the destruction of war, etc.
The word “Mashiach” which simply means “Anointed” is totally different as………
H4899
משׁיח
mâshîyach
BDB Definition:
1) anointed, anointed one
1a) of the Messiah, Messianic prince
1b) of the king of Israel
1c) of the high priest of Israel
1d) of Cyrus
1e) of the patriarchs as anointed kings
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H4886
Same Word by TWOT Number: 1255c
It denotes one who has been chosen. One can be anointed/chosen and not be so chosen to perform an act of saving but rather other acts like killing, etc.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
-
Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostFor example the Jewish view of the Messiah
Hebrew description from a Jewish perspective
There is a large difference between the Hebrew word מוֹשִׁיעִים(One’s saving) and מָּשִׁיחַ (Anointed one) as we so see in the BDB.
מוֹשִׁיעִים is a derivative of yasha or rather…….
H3467
ישׁע
yâsha‛
BDB Definition:
1) to save, be saved, be delivered
1a) (Niphal)
1a1) to be liberated, be saved, be delivered
1a2) to be saved (in battle), be victorious
1b) (Hiphil)
1b1) to save, deliver
1b2) to save from moral troubles
1b3) to give victory to
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number: 929
That derivation is so shown in one of the plural forms of H4190 in Ps 68:20 in the KJV as “salvation’s” or “Saving acts”. This example pointing to the acts themselves and not the one doing, or being used, to perform the saving acts…….
H4190
מושׁעה
môshâ‛âh
BDB Definition:
1) saving act, deliverance
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H3467
Same Word by TWOT Number: 929d
What we see in Neh 9:27 is מוֹשִׁיעִים which in this plural form points out those who are used for the purpose of performing act’s of physical salvation. Saving a people from the destruction of war, etc.
The word “Mashiach” which simply means “Anointed” is totally different as………
H4899
משׁיח
mâshîyach
BDB Definition:
1) anointed, anointed one
1a) of the Messiah, Messianic prince
1b) of the king of Israel
1c) of the high priest of Israel
1d) of Cyrus
1e) of the patriarchs as anointed kings
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H4886
Same Word by TWOT Number: 1255c
It denotes one who has been chosen. One can be anointed/chosen and not be so chosen to perform an act of saving but rather other acts like killing, etc.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
Comment
-
Related Threads
Collapse
Topics | Statistics | Last Post | ||
---|---|---|---|---|
Started by whag, 03-27-2024, 03:01 PM
|
39 responses
207 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by whag
Yesterday, 03:32 PM
|
||
Started by whag, 03-17-2024, 04:55 PM
|
21 responses
132 views
0 likes
|
Last Post 03-21-2024, 12:15 PM | ||
Started by whag, 03-14-2024, 06:04 PM
|
80 responses
428 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by tabibito
Yesterday, 12:33 PM
|
||
Started by whag, 03-13-2024, 12:06 PM
|
45 responses
305 views
1 like
|
Last Post 03-17-2024, 07:19 AM | ||
Started by rogue06, 12-26-2023, 11:05 AM
|
406 responses
2,518 views
2 likes
|
Last Post
by tabibito
Yesterday, 05:49 PM
|
Comment