Announcement

Collapse

Apologetics 301 Guidelines

If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you


This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Nobody Dies for a Lie

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
    Which is exactly my point. All versions have EQUAL AUTHORITY, (Just like the God Head) therefore, they are ALL the TREATY. (Maybe if I type in bold you will get it?)

    Seriously dude? How is this "advanced photocopying in any way shape or form?
    Explain the "claims made about the relationship in the Triune GodHead so that I understand your objection.

    Of course there cant be an analogy that fits exactly (I already admitted that...did you miss it?) Just like many other things that do not have exact analogies, because they aren't THAT thing. Make an exact analogy of Water please.

    Yes, you're right, the early church had to define it, they did. That you don't believe it, or cannot understand it doesn't take away from whether it's a truth statement or not.
    I'll set aside the rest. You are entitled to whatever you think informs you. I'm merely telling you that, as someone outside the faith (now), this explanation does nothing to provide insight into the concept of trinity. As I said to MM/Sparko - there is no difference between this and multiple copies/formats/translations of the same book. It is a variation on copying. Somehow that it's a treaty and there is a mechanism for authenticating the language translations so everyone is aligned on the same concept is important to you - but it doesn't say much of anything to me.

    If you want an analogy that at least starts to approach the idea, you might try the triple-point of any substance (e.g., water). But even that one falls short. Ultimately I lean towards a fairly simple rule: when something is self-contradictory, it's not true. I've found that rule serves me well. It's one of the reasons I abandoned Christianity many years ago - too many internal contradictions. God/Man and Triune were two of them. You just have to abandon too much simple reason to wrap your arms around it.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
      The analogy is not about how they are produced, it's about what they are. To claim that "three persons, one divine essence" is contradictory is like saying that "three documents, one legal essence" is contradictory.
      No - it's not.
      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
        I wish I had said that!
        Well I guess you can call me little Sir Echo then

        I'm always still in trouble again

        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

        Comment


        • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
          No - it's not.
          Your failure to elaborate on this point is noted.
          Last edited by Mountain Man; 05-18-2018, 10:29 AM.
          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
          Than a fool in the eyes of God


          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

          Comment


          • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
            No - it's not.
            Yes - it is.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
              If you want an analogy that at least starts to approach the idea, you might try the triple-point of any substance (e.g., water). But even that one falls short. Ultimately I lean towards a fairly simple rule: when something is self-contradictory, it's not true. I've found that rule serves me well. It's one of the reasons I abandoned Christianity many years ago - too many internal contradictions. God/Man and Triune were two of them. You just have to abandon too much simple reason to wrap your arms around it.
              Let me guess, you heard the phrase "fully God, and fully man" and said, "That's impossible! It's like trying to fill a glass twice in succession without emptying it first!" without bothering to dig a little deeper to find that the concept is, in fact, "essentially God, and essentially man".
              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
              Than a fool in the eyes of God


              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                Yes - it is.
                Is not...
                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                  Let me guess, you heard the phrase "fully God, and fully man" and said, "That's impossible! It's like trying to fill a glass twice in succession without emptying it first!" without bothering to dig a little deeper to find that the concept is, in fact, "essentially God, and essentially man".
                  Ummm....no...
                  The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                  I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                    Is not...
                    Is!
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                      Is!
                      Not!



                      Arggg...back to whipping the bloody cow!
                      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                        Not!



                        Arggg...back to whipping the bloody cow!
                        So, I'm curious - why do you care about what Christians believe about the Trinity? I can understand Tassman and JimL arguing this because they're anti-Christian hate-filled bigots. It's looking like you just love to argue and "be right".
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          So, I'm curious - why do you care about what Christians believe about the Trinity? I can understand Tassman and JimL arguing this because they're anti-Christian hate-filled bigots. It's looking like you just love to argue and "be right".
                          I actually don't care about what Christians think about the trinity. I read the post and found the analogy seriously wanting, and simply expressed the view. What people do and do not beleive within their religion is entirely up to them.

                          The whole concept of the trinity was always an uncomfortable fit for me, even when I was Christian. So was the whole dual nature thing. Some part of me always was uneasy with holding a belief that, when pressed, I had to resort to "it's part of the mystery of god" or "god is bigger than our understanding" or any of a number of dismissals.

                          And yes - I love to argue. At least in the philosophical sense. I think I've said that before. I like taking an idea apart, looking at the pieces, seeing if it holds together, and exploring where it takes me. That is best done with people who don't agree with me - because arguing with someone who agrees with me is short and pointless.

                          As for being right...I honestly don't know anyone that enjoys being wrong.

                          So yes... I plead guilty to enjoying the sensation when I find I am correct about something. Hopefully I don't like it so much that I'll blindly insist on being right when I'm not. I would not like myself very much if I was that kind of person.
                          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                            Every analogy fails at some point, and you can nitpick all the details and find fault, even though it's a "pretty good" description or comparison. Those who want to reject the Trinity will always find reasons to do so.
                            right. The purpose of an analogy is not to be 1-to-1 equivalent, it is to illustrate an idea that is hard to understand using a simpler example. The only part of the analogy that counts here is that there are three distinct documents, each of which is fully the Treaty. The treaty isn't the words on the document, no matter what language it is in. The treaty is the agreement between the parties represented by the documents. Each document fully embodies the agreement between the parties. Each is equivalent to the entire Treaty and yet each is distinctly a different piece of paper with different words on it. And there is only one agreement (treaty) between the parties, not three different ones.

                            That is actually a pretty good analogy of the Trinity. It is not meant to explain it completely, just give you an example of 3 things fully being another thing that is one.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                              Let me guess, you heard the phrase "fully God, and fully man" and said, "That's impossible! It's like trying to fill a glass twice in succession without emptying it first!" without bothering to dig a little deeper to find that the concept is, in fact, "essentially God, and essentially man".
                              So 1 = 3 and 3 = 1 at the same time.
                              “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                              Comment


                              • 3 dimensions = 1 space

                                There, an example of 1 thing consisting of three other distinct things.

                                Length, height and depth are all distinct, yet there are not 3 spaces, but only one space.

                                You're welcome.

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by whag, Yesterday, 03:01 PM
                                14 responses
                                48 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post rogue06
                                by rogue06
                                 
                                Started by whag, 03-17-2024, 04:55 PM
                                21 responses
                                129 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                                Started by whag, 03-14-2024, 06:04 PM
                                78 responses
                                414 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post tabibito  
                                Started by whag, 03-13-2024, 12:06 PM
                                45 responses
                                303 views
                                1 like
                                Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                                Working...
                                X