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  • #31
    Originally posted by Roy View Post
    Cerebrum123 has chosen to nominate the above in the Tektonics screwball thread. Perhaps he finds it too hard to provide a reasonable, serious, non-stupid, can't-be-refuted-in-under-20-seconds argument for Christian theism.
    One who thinks they can refute every argument for a religion and think they are all stupid, likely don’t understand the arguments or religion in question.
    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      Ah, thanks. Sounds like environmental wackyism to the extreme. Not quite the same as the deadly "reject Christ or die" ultimatum.
      For comparison: Was Jesus a suicide or was he murdered by his dad?
      “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
      “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
      “not all there” - you know who you are

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
        Cerebrum123 has chosen to nominate the above in the Tektonics screwball thread. Perhaps he finds it too hard to provide a reasonable, serious, non-stupid, can't-be-refuted-in-under-20-seconds argument for Christian theism.
        One who thinks they can refute every argument for a religion and think they are all stupid, likely don’t understand the arguments or religion in question.
        So you can't provide a reasonable, serious, non-stupid, can't-be-refuted-in-under-20-seconds argument for Christian theism either.
        Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

        mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

        Mountain Man: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
        Mountain Man: … this is how liberals argue these days, with labels instead of ideas.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Roy View Post
          So you can't provide a reasonable, serious, non-stupid, can't-be-refuted-in-under-20-seconds argument for Christian theism either.
          Thanks for proving my point. There’s little point in debating an all knowing arrogant jack ass that already thinks he knows everything. Rather, it’s more important to point out your arrogance and massive ego.
          "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
          GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by brain doesn't go past the firstfloor View Post
            For comparison: Was Jesus a suicide or was he murdered by his dad?
            He was murdered by the Roman government at the request of Jewish leaders.
            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
            Than a fool in the eyes of God


            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
              So you can't provide a reasonable, serious, non-stupid, can't-be-refuted-in-under-20-seconds argument for Christian theism either.
              Thanks for proving my point. There’s little point in debating an all knowing arrogant jack ass that already thinks he knows everything. Rather, it’s more important to point out your arrogance and massive ego.
              Thank you for proving mine.
              Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

              mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

              Mountain Man: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
              Mountain Man: … this is how liberals argue these days, with labels instead of ideas.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Roy View Post
                Thank you for proving mine.
                Get a room, you two.
                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                sigpic
                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Dimbulb View Post
                  We can ask "To what extent do the scientists and academics in our world typically take seriously any particular argument regarding the existence of God?"

                  Is there, for example, some well known argument that is acknowledged by all modern thinkers to be utterly compelling, such that it is taught to every student in high school as a matter of course? No.

                  Is there perhaps an argument that is perhaps 50-50 such that it is continually debated by all thinking men throughout the world, and all scientists give thought to daily? No.

                  Is there perhaps an argument that's widely regarded to have about a 10% chance of being right, such that a lot of people give it a heap of credence and so it is widely known? Not really.

                  The simple fact is that modern scientists, intellectuals, academics, etc don't consider any of the major apologetic 'arguments' for the truth of Christianity to be worth any particularly serious level of consideration. The only place they are even mentioned in a modern university are in courses labelled "philosophy of religion" where the lecturer will explain to the students the ontological argument, cosmological argument, pascal's wager, the argument from design etc, not because the lecturer considers those remotely compelling or expects the students to do so, but because those are some identifiable historical arguments that were made by certain Christian intellectuals at the time. So regardless of what I personally think of the arguments, the fact is that the smart people in our society as a whole today do not in general consider the arguments anything other than a historical curiosity. The absolutely tiny number of Christian academics who think one of the arguments 'works' don't even agree with each other as to which one does.

                  With regard to this sort of thing, it's worth noting that over the 20th century the average IQ massively increased (this observation is known as the Flynn Effect), and this has been attributed to everything from better nutrition to better schooling. A 'very smart' person by today's standards would run circles around historical thinkers who were judged 'very smart' in their own societies. Since I have a PhD in a science field I would estimate that it is probable that I am smarter than even the greatest historical Christian thinkers and probably by a significant margin.
                  You are, of course, begging the question that human societies will always value that which is true and that which is worth knowing. Just because modern Western society has been swinging more secular over the past century does not prove that questions they think unworthy of consideration are necessarily unworthy of consideration.

                  But then you buy into the self-serving lie that people are becoming progressively smarter* and puff up your own questionable credentials, so your conclusions are neither surprising nor noteworthy.


                  * For one thing, a rise in IQ test scores does not prove a rise in intelligence, and it has long been debated whether or not intelligence can even be meaningfully or objectively measured. And while modern humans might perform better in some cognitive tests compared to people in the past, they perform worse in others. To put it another way, I seriously question your claim to be smarter than some of history's most brilliant theists like Aristotle, Pascal, Newton, etc.
                  Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                  But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                  Than a fool in the eyes of God


                  From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Roy View Post
                    So you can't provide a reasonable, serious, non-stupid, can't-be-refuted-in-under-20-seconds argument for Christian theism either.
                    If you think the best arguments for theism can be substantively refuted in under 20-seconds then you're clearly not someone worth taking seriously. I suspect what you really mean is that there's no argument for theism that can't be flippantly dismissed within 20-seconds, but so what?
                    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                    Than a fool in the eyes of God


                    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Roy View Post
                      Thank you for proving mine.
                      Not really because why would anyone want to throw their hat in the ring when you have already declared them wrong?
                      "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                      GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                        If you think the best arguments for theism can be substantively refuted in under 20-seconds then you're clearly not someone worth taking seriously. I suspect what you really mean is that there's no argument for theism that can't be flippantly dismissed within 20-seconds, but so what?
                        I don’t think Roy gets it yet. Few will try when he already stacked the deck in advance.
                        "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                        GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                          We can ask "To what extent do the scientists and academics in our world typically take seriously any particular argument regarding the existence of God?"

                          Is there, for example, some well known argument that is acknowledged by all modern thinkers to be utterly compelling, such that it is taught to every student in high school as a matter of course? No.

                          Is there perhaps an argument that is perhaps 50-50 such that it is continually debated by all thinking men throughout the world, and all scientists give thought to daily? No.

                          Is there perhaps an argument that's widely regarded to have about a 10% chance of being right, such that a lot of people give it a heap of credence and so it is widely known? Not really.

                          The simple fact is that modern scientists, intellectuals, academics, etc don't consider any of the major apologetic 'arguments' for the truth of Christianity to be worth any particularly serious level of consideration. The only place they are even mentioned in a modern university are in courses labelled "philosophy of religion" where the lecturer will explain to the students the ontological argument, cosmological argument, pascal's wager, the argument from design etc, not because the lecturer considers those remotely compelling or expects the students to do so, but because those are some identifiable historical arguments that were made by certain Christian intellectuals at the time. So regardless of what I personally think of the arguments, the fact is that the smart people in our society as a whole today do not in general consider the arguments anything other than a historical curiosity. The absolutely tiny number of Christian academics who think one of the arguments 'works' don't even agree with each other as to which one does.
                          Motte and Bailey. Make a massive overgeneralisation, and then when challenged on it, retreat to a related claim that is more defensible - but still hold to your original claim.

                          Why should I give any credence to the uneducated (and on the best arguments for Christian theism, the bulk of secular academics and scientists are uneducated) beliefs of 'experts' in unrelated fields? Might as well conduct a survey of botanists, primary school teachers, lawyers and firemen to decide if any of the theories of Quantum Physics are worth the paper they're written on.

                          Few academics in secular disciplines at secular institutions believe in Christianity?
                          For the sarcastically impaired the following is said in jest

                          Wow, what a surprise.



                          Originally posted by Starlight
                          With regard to this sort of thing, it's worth noting that over the 20th century the average IQ massively increased (this observation is known as the Flynn Effect), and this has been attributed to everything from better nutrition to better schooling. A 'very smart' person by today's standards would run circles around historical thinkers who were judged 'very smart' in their own societies. Since I have a PhD in a science field I would estimate that it is probable that I am smarter than even the greatest historical Christian thinkers and probably by a significant margin.
                          Your inane, classless and unprofessional post that I responded to is proof that you're not all that smart.

                          Originally posted by Starlight
                          All the arguments for Christian theism are stupid.

                          None of them are reasonable. None of them are 'close' to right. None of them should be taken at all seriously. All of them are a joke.
                          How could you actually demonstrate your claim to be true? Go through all the arguments individually and show how each one is "stupid" and how none of them are reasonable.

                          Of course you can't do that, and you lack the wisdom and smarts to just say you were speaking in a big generalisation that no-one could possibly support. But you didn't, and you won't. Q.E.D. You aren't that smart or wise.
                          ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Eh, Starlight's pretty smart. His problem is that his arguments in the area of politics and religion tend to depend much more on emotion than reason, because he's emotionally invested in his beliefs in those areas. He was a Christian until he seems to have discovered, to his shock, that there was a basic conflict between his religion and his lifestyle. His lifestyle turned out to be more important to him.
                            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                            sigpic
                            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Roy View Post
                              Cerebrum123 has chosen to nominate the above in the Tektonics screwball thread. Perhaps he finds it too hard to provide a reasonable, serious, non-stupid, can't-be-refuted-in-under-20-seconds argument for Christian theism.
                              Or I don't take you seriously at all based on past experience with you.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                I see some chronological snobbery.
                                sigpic

                                Comment

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