Announcement

Collapse

Apologetics 301 Guidelines

If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you


This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Nobody Dies for a Lie

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by Starlight View Post
    I'm saying I've seen many and various other articulations of the argument, and I think they are all a bad joke.
    Okay then.
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
      Okay then.
      Carpedm and I both have backgrounds that mean we've come across many and various versions of these type of arguments before. Given we've seen so many terrible arguments of this form, I am strongly inclined to doubt there is a super-amazingly-great version of the argument out there someone that we haven't seen. However, if you have a particular version of the argument that you endorse and which you think is particularly good then by all means present it.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Dimbulb View Post
        There are lots of weird apologetics arguments about the early believers in Christianity and the spread of Christianity. Generally I don't find such arguments to be worth the pixels they are written on. The fact is there have been lots of religious fanatics throughout history who have believed all sorts of weird and crazy things. Their fervent belief doesn't make their beliefs true.
        I've never seen "nobody would die for lie" used as a general argument for Christianity. Rather, it's to counter a specific "weird skeptical argument" that the apostles were a bunch of con-men who knew what they were saying wasn't true. The counter argument that "liars make poor martyrs" obviously doesn't prove that what they believed was true, but it's not intended to; it's only meant so show that they sincerely believed it.
        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
        Than a fool in the eyes of God


        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Starlight View Post
          Carpedm and I both have backgrounds that mean we've come across many and various versions of these type of arguments before. Given we've seen so many terrible arguments of this form, I am strongly inclined to doubt there is a super-amazingly-great version of the argument out there someone that we haven't seen. However, if you have a particular version of the argument that you endorse and which you think is particularly good then by all means present it.
          I'm quite aware of your background, as it has been discussed many times. That doesn't change how audacious it is to dismiss probably the centerpiece argument for Christian theism as stupid without further comment or elaboration, especially when it was originally presented here in an especially weak manner.
          "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
            That doesn't change how audacious it is to dismiss probably the centerpiece argument for Christian theism as stupid
            All the arguments for Christian theism are stupid.

            None of them are reasonable. None of them are 'close' to right. None of them should be taken at all seriously. All of them are a joke.

            That's why I'm an atheist.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Starlight View Post
              All the arguments for Christian theism are stupid.

              None of them are reasonable. None of them are 'close' to right. None of them should be taken at all seriously. All of them are a joke.

              That's why I'm an atheist.
              It takes more than one sentence to establish that
              "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                All the arguments for Christian theism are stupid.

                None of them are reasonable. None of them are 'close' to right. None of them should be taken at all seriously. All of them are a joke.

                That's why I'm an atheist.
                Because you're incapable of fairly assessing anything that challenges your pet prejudices? Because you think you're smarter and wiser than even the greatest Christian thinkers?

                uh... Oh- Kaaay
                ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
                  Because you think you're smarter and wiser than even the greatest Christian thinkers
                  We can ask "To what extent do the scientists and academics in our world typically take seriously any particular argument regarding the existence of God?"

                  Is there, for example, some well known argument that is acknowledged by all modern thinkers to be utterly compelling, such that it is taught to every student in high school as a matter of course? No.

                  Is there perhaps an argument that is perhaps 50-50 such that it is continually debated by all thinking men throughout the world, and all scientists give thought to daily? No.

                  Is there perhaps an argument that's widely regarded to have about a 10% chance of being right, such that a lot of people give it a heap of credence and so it is widely known? Not really.

                  The simple fact is that modern scientists, intellectuals, academics, etc don't consider any of the major apologetic 'arguments' for the truth of Christianity to be worth any particularly serious level of consideration. The only place they are even mentioned in a modern university are in courses labelled "philosophy of religion" where the lecturer will explain to the students the ontological argument, cosmological argument, pascal's wager, the argument from design etc, not because the lecturer considers those remotely compelling or expects the students to do so, but because those are some identifiable historical arguments that were made by certain Christian intellectuals at the time. So regardless of what I personally think of the arguments, the fact is that the smart people in our society as a whole today do not in general consider the arguments anything other than a historical curiosity. The absolutely tiny number of Christian academics who think one of the arguments 'works' don't even agree with each other as to which one does.

                  Because you think you're smarter and wiser than even the greatest Christian thinkers
                  With regard to this sort of thing, it's worth noting that over the 20th century the average IQ massively increased (this observation is known as the Flynn Effect), and this has been attributed to everything from better nutrition to better schooling. A 'very smart' person by today's standards would run circles around historical thinkers who were judged 'very smart' in their own societies. Since I have a PhD in a science field I would estimate that it is probable that I am smarter than even the greatest historical Christian thinkers and probably by a significant margin.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                    It takes more than one sentence to establish that
                    You're right. It takes 20+ years of being presented with supposedly watertight arguments for Christian theism that on inspection prove so leaky you could use them as a submarine dock.

                    None of the arguments for Christian theism are aimed at determining what reality is. They are all, without exception, from Thomas to Craig, intended to bolster existing beliefs. As such they almost always make unwarranted assumptions that are based in the arguers faith, but easy to spot if (unlike those who propagate these apologetics) one does not share those assumptions. They are also usually blatantly obvious if the argument is put in formal symbolic logic, which is probably why apologists never do that.

                    30+ years of examining such arguments does indeed result in the conclusion that they are all worthless, that there are no more arguments that remain unseen, an ability to dissect such arguments in less time than it takes to type a reply and a certainty that the person presenting them does not care whether or not they are flawed since that is not the basis for their belief and there are many more anyway.
                    Last edited by Roy; 04-16-2018, 04:36 AM.
                    Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                    mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

                    Mountain Man: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                    Mountain Man: … this is how liberals argue these days, with labels instead of ideas.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                      A 'very smart' person by today's standards would run circles around historical thinkers who were judged 'very smart' in their own societies. Since I have a PhD in a science field I would estimate that it is probable that I am smarter than even the greatest historical Christian thinkers and probably by a significant margin.
                      I would prefer 'better educated,' 'wider read' and 'having internet access' to 'smarter'.
                      Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                      mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

                      Mountain Man: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                      Mountain Man: … this is how liberals argue these days, with labels instead of ideas.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Roy View Post
                        I would prefer 'better educated,' 'wider read' and 'having internet access' to 'smarter'.
                        I was also thinking that there's the famous quote/proverb:
                        "If I have seen further than other men it is by standing on the shoulders of giants."
                        As in, the cumulative wisdom of centuries of intellectuals and thinkers allows arguments and ideas to be time-tested and assessed not by one person but by thousands, and then we can today can inherit their accomplishments. It is not a matter of whether one single person is or isn't smarter than any single other person. It is a matter of whether the ideas that the historical Christian thinkers presented have subsequently been judged positively or negatively by the hundreds of thousands of thinkers that have followed since then. As I mentioned in my earlier post, their ideas have been soundly rejected across the board, and if you pick a random secular university today in the world the number of scientists or academics there making any sort of reference to those arguments is minuscule. They have been thoroughly rejected and are not treated seriously today.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                          I was also thinking that there's the famous quote/proverb:
                          "If I have seen further than other men it is by standing on the shoulders of giants."
                          As in, the cumulative wisdom of centuries of intellectuals and thinkers allows arguments and ideas to be time-tested and assessed not by one person but by thousands, and then we can today can inherit their accomplishments. It is not a matter of whether one single person is or isn't smarter than any single other person. It is a matter of whether the ideas that the historical Christian thinkers presented have subsequently been judged positively or negatively by the hundreds of thousands of thinkers that have followed since then. As I mentioned in my earlier post, their ideas have been soundly rejected across the board, and if you pick a random secular university today in the world the number of scientists or academics there making any sort of reference to those arguments is minuscule. They have been thoroughly rejected and are not treated seriously today.


                          Yes they’re treated so unserious today that their works are being published over a thousand years after their deaths, their words are studied by thousands of theologians and philosophers thousands of years later, and their collected works form the bases of a belief system with over a billion followers. Yep, not taken seriously at all.
                          "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                          GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                            Yes they’re treated so unserious today that their works are being published over a thousand years after their deaths, their words are studied by thousands of theologians and philosophers thousands of years later, and their collected works form the bases of a belief system with over a billion followers. Yep, not taken seriously at all.
                            You appear to be confused. Starlight was referring to the arguments of Aquinas, Anselm, Pascal, Craig, Paley, Plantinga etc. Not Islam.
                            Last edited by Roy; 04-16-2018, 08:11 AM.
                            Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                            mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

                            Mountain Man: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                            Mountain Man: … this is how liberals argue these days, with labels instead of ideas.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Cerebrum123 has chosen to nominate the above in the Tektonics screwball thread. Perhaps he finds it too hard to provide a reasonable, serious, non-stupid, can't-be-refuted-in-under-20-seconds argument for Christian theism.
                              Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                              mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

                              Mountain Man: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                              Mountain Man: … this is how liberals argue these days, with labels instead of ideas.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Roy View Post
                                You appear to be confused. Starlight was referring to the arguments of Aquinas, Anselm, Pascal, Craig, Paley, Plantinga etc. Not Islam.


                                It’s so funny when you try to be serious and fail badly at it.
                                "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                                GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by lee_merrill, 10-24-2020, 07:58 PM
                                8 responses
                                34 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post rogue06
                                by rogue06
                                 
                                Started by Esther, 09-27-2020, 02:01 PM
                                57 responses
                                276 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post shunyadragon  
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 09-15-2020, 11:19 AM
                                49 responses
                                416 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Tassman
                                by Tassman
                                 
                                Started by shunyadragon, 09-09-2016, 03:27 PM
                                1,037 responses
                                54,175 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post thormas
                                by thormas
                                 
                                Started by showmeproof, 01-19-2014, 11:28 AM
                                91 responses
                                19,197 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post shunyadragon  
                                Working...
                                X