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What must I do to be Born Again?

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  • Originally posted by whag View Post
    True in the sense Adam and Eve were the first people?
    I take it as true that there was a first couple.

    I already did, but you didn't acknowledge it.
    Right, I'm not interested in arguments by weblinks.

    Who opposes birth control other than the dogmatic? Certain atheists don't.
    Right, certain atheists don't. Which theists do? And what's the proportion of theists that do?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Paprika View Post
      I take it as true that there was a first couple.
      Do you take it as true they were the first people?


      Originally posted by Paprika
      Right, I'm not interested in arguments by weblinks.
      You should be interested in data that shows family planning lowers poverty. Perhaps you already know that?


      Originally posted by Paprika
      Right, certain atheists don't. Which theists do? And what's the proportion of theists that do?
      Enough of a proportion of Christians are against it to slow the spread of reproductive freedom in parts of the world most in need of it. Ever heard of Mother Theresa?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by whag View Post
        Do you take it as true they were the first people?
        Yes.
        You should be interested in data that shows family planning lowers poverty. Perhaps you already know that?
        Yes.

        Ever heard of Mother Theresa?
        Yes.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Paprika View Post
          Yes.
          Who did Cain marry?

          Originally posted by Paprika View Post
          Yes.
          So we know the solution for greater happiness, yet only a large group of theists--not atheists--oppose it. Climate change measures are similarly opposed by religionists, not atheists. That should "give you pause."


          Originally posted by Paprika View Post
          Yes.
          Then surely you're aware she exacerbated poverty being against family planning options.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by whag View Post
            Who did Cain marry?
            Likely a sister.
            So we know the solution for greater happiness, yet only a large group of theists--not atheists--oppose it. Climate change measures are similarly opposed by religionists, not atheists. That should "give you pause."
            Now would be a perfect time for you to produce statistics to demonstrate this.

            Then surely you're aware she exacerbated poverty being against family planning options.
            Do tell.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Paprika View Post
              Likely a sister.
              Likely? What other option would there be besides incest?

              Originally posted by Paprika
              Now would be a perfect time for you to produce statistics to demonstrate this.
              You're not interested in stats. When I present them, you call it argument by web link.


              Originally posted by Paprika
              Do tell.
              Figure it out. You just acknowledged family planning decreases poverty. Mother Theresa opposed family planning on religious grounds. Name some atheists who oppose family planning.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by whag View Post
                Likely? What other option would there be besides incest?
                Indeed.

                You're not interested in stats. When I present them, you call it argument by web link.
                A hyperlink is not statistics

                Figure it out. You just acknowledged family planning decreases poverty. Mother Theresa opposed family planning on religious grounds.
                She opposed certain forms of family planning, if I recall correctly. Not all forms.

                Name some atheists who oppose family planning.
                What on earth for?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                  Indeed.
                  Well there's a nice view. I bet that goes over well when you evangelize.


                  Originally posted by Paprika
                  A hyperlink is not statistics
                  So I don't waste my time, would statistics showing that climate change denialists are mostly religious and not atheist make a difference?


                  Originally posted by Paprika
                  She opposed certain forms of family planning, if I recall correctly. Not all forms.
                  She opposed artificial means, the only forms that work. Married couples, especially in third world countries, have lots of sex, so the rhythm method isn't effective.


                  Originally posted by Paprika
                  What on earth for?
                  Because you can't. Whereas showing religious groups who *do* oppose artificial family planning is a doddle. =)

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by whag View Post
                    Well there's a nice view. I bet that goes over well when you evangelize.
                    Swimmingly.

                    So I don't waste my time, would statistics showing that climate change denialists are mostly religious and not atheist make a difference?
                    If you don't want to show statistics of theists who oppose family planning, why should I take you seriously?

                    She opposed artificial means, the only forms that work. Married couples, especially in third world countries, have lots of sex, so the rhythm method isn't effective.
                    Well, it's their choice to have lots of sex, isn't it?

                    Because you can't. Whereas showing religious groups who *do* oppose artificial family planning is a doddle. =)
                    Right.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                      As I said to Tassman: "Agreed. I don't deny that people can or do learn from the past; what I am rather suspicious of is the idea of inevitable progress toward a (moral) utopia".
                      So you agree that man can create a better world for himself but not a perfect world. And? Sorry I have not been following this thread, but whats your point?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by whag View Post
                        That's an obfuscation. The way you and RBerman have presented it renders "elect" meaningless.
                        In your view. The election is God's. Only those who profess to be of the faith can make sure of their election. (see 2 Peter 1:4-11.) (see also 2 Corinthians 13:5; [Romans 8:9; 1 John 5:9-13.])

                        The phenomena being the perishing cannot understand truth of the gospel correctly (see 2 Corinthians 4:3, 4).
                        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                        Comment


                        • Interesting discussion, but it kind of strays from the subject of this thread; what is the formula for salvation?

                          Either way you slice it, there appears to be some formula or set of beliefs (John 3:16, etc) one must possess in order to earn salvation. This is confusing, because I remember quite clearly that some evangelicals claim that salvation is a free gift - salvation isn't earned.

                          On another thread in Unorthodox Theology, a debate (I assume; still) raged on about universal salvation. The Christian Apologetics were asserting that Jesus' sacrifice was not for everyone - in other words, while it is available for everyone, not all deserve it, or can achieve it (lack of believing the right thing).

                          So, which is it? Is there something one must do to be saved, or is it a free gift (so that none should boast)?

                          NORM
                          When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                            In your view. The election is God's. Only those who profess to be of the faith can make sure of their election. (see 2 Peter 1:4-11.) (see also 2 Corinthians 13:5; [Romans 8:9; 1 John 5:9-13.])

                            The phenomena being the perishing cannot understand truth of the gospel correctly (see 2 Corinthians 4:3, 4).
                            Now we are back on track. Here, 37818 is asserting that salvation is earned.

                            NORM
                            When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by NormATive View Post
                              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                              In your view. The election is God's. Only those who profess to be of the faith can make sure of their election. (see 2 Peter 1:4-11.) (see also 2 Corinthians 13:5; [Romans 8:9; 1 John 5:9-13.])

                              The phenomena being the perishing cannot understand truth of the gospel correctly (see 2 Corinthians 4:3, 4).
                              Now we are back on track. Here, 37818 is asserting that salvation is earned.

                              NORM
                              That is what you understand from my post? There is no such claim being made. "The election is God's." Can a person know if they are elect or not? If a person thinks they must earn salvation, their election is in doubt.

                              At this point, how do you think one is born again?

                              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                              Norm,

                              ". . . as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." -- John 1:12, 13. It is what God does for those who trust in Him believing in His Son who died on our behalf and rose from the dead. " . . . and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." -- Romans 10:9.

                              Jesus stated, this, "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, . . . ." That by trusting in Him according to God's will, you will know.

                              John states it as being as simple as believing in God's Christ, "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . ." -- 1 John 5:1. Remember it is God who does the new birth. Not our act of believing.

                              "Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, . . . " -- James 1:18.

                              ". . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . " -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.
                              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by NormATive View Post
                                Interesting discussion, but it kind of strays from the subject of this thread; what is the formula for salvation?

                                Either way you slice it, there appears to be some formula or set of beliefs (John 3:16, etc) one must possess in order to earn salvation. This is confusing, because I remember quite clearly that some evangelicals claim that salvation is a free gift - salvation isn't earned.

                                On another thread in Unorthodox Theology, a debate (I assume; still) raged on about universal salvation. The Christian Apologetics were asserting that Jesus' sacrifice was not for everyone - in other words, while it is available for everyone, not all deserve it, or can achieve it (lack of believing the right thing).

                                So, which is it? Is there something one must do to be saved, or is it a free gift (so that none should boast)?

                                NORM
                                ". . . he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world." -- 1 John 2:2.

                                "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: . . ." -- Ephesians 2:8.

                                "For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." -- Romans 6:23.

                                "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . ." -- 1 John 5:1.

                                "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, . . . " -- John 7:17.

                                [Jesus,] "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins. " -- John 8:24.
                                Last edited by 37818; 04-20-2014, 10:21 PM.
                                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                                Comment

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