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What must I do to be Born Again?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
    ... It is a matter of trusting in Jesus alone.
    "IN" what?

    Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
    ... When we trust Him for our salvation we are actually changed.
    Through what physical mechanism (since it is not supernatural)?

    Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
    A part of this change is "simply following Jesus' lead in how we live, think and relate to others." However God's plan never appears to have been to simply get people to be nicer and live more comfortable lives. What is God's ultimate plan? I can not answer that, but it involves expressing His nature, that is perfection, among other things.
    Why is this not enough? This is my point.

    Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
    .What is this "apocalyptic version of Christianity" of which you speak?
    I am surprised that you are unfamiliar with the Biblical accounts of Heaven, the Antichrist, the Whore of Babylon, the Second Coming of Christ, the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, etc, etc... Perhaps you are Greek Orthodox, and think that the book of Revelation should not have made the Canon? But, what about II Thessalonians.

    Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
    .For one thing hell is less a threat of eternal punishment than a warning that if you don't want God you will get exactly what you ask for - no God. As to why it didn't take for everyone, not everyone is willing to trust in Christ; which trust involves submission to Him.
    So, do you discount the scriptures that speak of torments like flesh eating worms, the eternal burning of flesh and, etc....weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth? Are these segments of scripture parts that you personally ignore?

    If salvation is a free gift, why is it contingent on "trusting in Christ." What does it mean to submit to Jesus? Submit to what, exactly? Since he was a practicing Jew, I would surmise that means obeying The Law.

    NORM
    When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Tassman View Post
      But it remains "a threat of eternal punishment" nevertheless. Surely any ideology that achieves its end by the threat of severe punishment, no matter what form the punishment takes, is morally bankrupt.
      By your yardstick, perhaps. Our age is scandalized by such a thought, but other ages have been appalled by the thought that a sovereign would forgive rebels. We are all adrift in the zeitgeist, and respond accordingly.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by NormATive View Post
        So, do you discount the scriptures that speak of torments like flesh eating worms, the eternal burning of flesh
        We get that from the Jewish Scriptures, don't we? Isaiah, to be specific.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by NormATive View Post
          "IN" what?
          The small words are the complicated ones, aren't they? When we talk about "having faith in Jesus," we're talking about trusting Jesus in all things. Trusting that he was God, that he died to free us from the power and penalty and presence of sin. And since we trust Jesus, we also want to live according to his teachings and example.

          I am surprised that you are unfamiliar with the Biblical accounts of Heaven, the Antichrist, the Whore of Babylon, the Second Coming of Christ, the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, etc, etc... Perhaps you are Greek Orthodox, and think that the book of Revelation should not have made the Canon? But, what about II Thessalonians.
          It is not obvious how you are tying those topics to the topic of faith in Christ.

          If salvation is a free gift, why is it contingent on "trusting in Christ."
          It is free in the sense that we do not earn it through our own behavior. As you say, it is contingent on trusting that Christ's behavior, including his propitiatory death, earned salvation for us.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by RBerman View Post
            The small words are the complicated ones, aren't they? When we talk about "having faith in Jesus," we're talking about trusting Jesus in all things. Trusting that he was God, that he died to free us from the power and penalty and presence of sin. And since we trust Jesus, we also want to live according to his teachings and example.
            So, all of this is required before one can receive this "free" gift? Hmm. Seems pretty conditional to me.


            Originally posted by RBerman View Post
            It is not obvious how you are tying those topics to the topic of faith in Christ.
            You are right. I should not assume you accept the entire Bible as the Word of God. If you believe that Jesus is the way to salvation, well; salvation from what? Answer: the coming wrath of God. That is how those apocalyptic verses relate to "faith in Christ." Of course, if you don't think those verses really belong in the Bible, then it is a moot point.


            Originally posted by RBerman View Post
            It is free in the sense that we do not earn it through our own behavior. As you say, it is contingent on trusting that Christ's behavior, including his propitiatory death, earned salvation for us.
            And, yet there are the conditions you have just spoken of:

            1. Belief that Jesus is God
            2. Belief that his crucifixion "fixed" the Fall
            3. Live according to his teaching (i.e.; adherence to The Law of Moses)

            I'm having trouble seeing your plan of salvation as a free gift. Why not just say that here are the several things you Must do to earn salvation? That way, no one is confused.

            NORM
            When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by NormATive View Post
              So, all of this is required before one can receive this "free" gift? Hmm. Seems pretty conditional to me.
              Yes, it is absolutely conditional. As I said, it's a "free gift" in the sense of not being the result of working to earn God's favor by, say, keeping the Law. Romans 4-5 deal with this distinction.

              You are right. I should not assume you accept the entire Bible as the Word of God. If you believe that Jesus is the way to salvation, well; salvation from what? Answer: the coming wrath of God. That is how those apocalyptic verses relate to "faith in Christ." Of course, if you don't think those verses really belong in the Bible, then it is a moot point.
              I do accept the entire Bible. I just don't know what point you're trying to make in raising the issue of Revelation, whose main contribution to theology deals with a vision of the blessed Eternal State. The issue of "salvation from what?," while reiterated at the end of Revelation is already discussed extensively in the gospels. Because the problem of sin is multi-faceted, so is our salvation. We are saved from the penalty our sins deserve. We are also saved from the power of sin in our lives, so that we become able to keep God's commands. We are also eventually saved from the cosmic effects of sin, as God remakes the universe in which we will live.

              And, yet there are the conditions you have just spoken of:

              1. Belief that Jesus is God
              2. Belief that his crucifixion "fixed" the Fall
              3. Live according to his teaching (i.e.; adherence to The Law of Moses)

              I'm having trouble seeing your plan of salvation as a free gift. Why not just say that here are the several things you Must do to earn salvation? That way, no one is confused.
              I don't mind saying items 1 and 2 as long as you understand what I mean. We use "free gift" terminology because the Bible itself does (Romans 5:15-17), in the context of faith in Christ still being a condition to be met in order to be saved. The trouble is that many people who think of "earning salvation" are thinking of meriting God's approval by being good people who are nice to others. That's a dead end, from a Christian perspective, because we could never be perfect enough to impress a perfect God with our behavior. On this count, we don't need a teacher as much as we need a perfect substitute, which is why God himself came as Jesus to solve the problem our sin presented.

              I would not include item 3 (Live according to his teaching) as something we must do to earn salvation. But it is a characteristic of those who satisfy 1 and 2. It would not make sense to trust Jesus for eternity but disregard him in this life. In that sense, item 3 in your list is evidentiary with respect to salvation rather than efficacious.
              Last edited by RBerman; 04-07-2014, 01:31 PM.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Catholicity View Post
                Given that I recognize a person may live a fully moral and meaningful life without a belief in God; how would you propose describing devotion to God in secular terms; especially if said person decides that they want to believe in God and lead a religious life.
                I wouldn’t. I am making a distinction between worship and service. In the religious context they are linked. The obvious problem with God’s involvement in the practicalities of living is that He is credited for positive results but usually not blamed for negative ones. If the life saver doesn’t show up when needed, blame the agency, if he does, thank God. Or so they say, but I’m not sure how many actually believe it nowadays.
                “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                “not all there” - you know who you are

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  That's just goofy.

                  More goofiness.

                  No, I don't. Just because you have a twisted view of God doesn't mean I do.
                  Remember who you are relating to here, CP.
                  Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                    Remember who you are relating to here, CP.
                    Excellent point, Jed.
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                      We get that from the Jewish Scriptures, don't we? Isaiah, to be specific.
                      Sort of. The Christian Testament actually misquotes Isaiah. In the Christian Testament (Mark 9), the body of the person cast into hell does not die along with the worm. This is actually another clue that the Christian Testament is a rework of common Jewish themes, even if done clumsily.


                      In Isaiah, the people are dead, but the WORM lives on. Weird, actually:

                      כד וְיָצְאוּ וְרָאוּ--בְּפִגְרֵי הָאֲנָשִׁים, הַפֹּשְׁעִים בִּי: כִּי תוֹלַעְתָּם לֹא תָמוּת, וְאִשָּׁם לֹא תִכְבֶּה, וְהָיוּ דֵרָאוֹן, לְכָל-בָּשָׂר. {ש} "And they will go out and look on the dead bodies (some English versions use the word "carcasses") of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."
                      NORM
                      When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by NormATive View Post
                        Sort of. The Christian Testament actually misquotes Isaiah. In the Christian Testament (Mark 9), the body of the person cast into hell does not die along with the worm. This is actually another clue that the Christian Testament is a rework of common Jewish themes, even if done clumsily.


                        In Isaiah, the people are dead, but the WORM lives on. Weird, actually:



                        NORM

                        In Mark, the worm doesn't die...
                        Source: [Mark 9:43

                        *And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: [44]*Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [45]*And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: [46]*Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [47]*And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: [48]*Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

                        © Copyright Original Source

                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by The Remonstrant View Post
                          [SIZE=3][FONT=Palatino Linotype]... "eternal punishment" does not necessarily mean unending torment as it is so often assumed.
                          What to do with these Christian Testament scriptures, then?

                          Revelation 21:8
                          But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.
                          Matthew 25:46
                          "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
                          Matthew 13:50
                          and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
                          Matthew 13:42
                          They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
                          Matthew 25:41
                          "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
                          NORM
                          When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                            In Mark, the worm doesn't die...
                            Source: [Mark 9:43

                            *And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: [44]*Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [45]*And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: [46]*Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [47]*And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: [48]*Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

                            © Copyright Original Source

                            No kidding. I said the difference is that in Mark, the PEOPLE are still alive. In Isaiah, the people are DEAD - CORPSES.

                            NORM
                            When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by NormATive View Post
                              No kidding. I said the difference is that in Mark, the PEOPLE are still alive. In Isaiah, the people are DEAD - CORPSES.

                              NORM
                              Ah, ok. And, thanks for the drama.
                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                                Ah, ok. And, thanks for the drama.
                                It may seem like a small point, but I find it very interesting that the composers of the Christian Testament could not even interpret their own ancient texts. To be fair, they were working from a Greek translation of the Hebrew, so...

                                But, this is a side issue. The real story is the fact that the Christian Testament teaches that failure to buy into the whole "plan" will result in eternal torment (radioactive worms or not, it isn't a very pleasant thought).

                                NORM
                                When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu

                                Comment

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