Announcement

Collapse

Apologetics 301 Guidelines

If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you


This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

What must I do to be Born Again?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Paprika, if all you can add is sarcasm, incorrect grammatical analyses and smiley faces, rather than seriously addressing the issues, I would ask that you no longer post on this thread.

    You aren't adding anything constructive to the conversation, and force everyone to just scroll past your posts or place you on ignore.

    Thanks,

    NORM
    When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu

    Comment


    • Originally posted by NormATive View Post
      First, it's "i" before "e" [except after "c"] or when sounded like "a" as in neighbor and weigh.
      Not always. Ancient heifers know that neither efficient financiers nor surfeited scientific foreigners seize nor forfeit their weird counterfeit heights leisurely.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Paprika View Post
        The atrocities committed by so many "enlightened" societies, many explicitly attempting a form of utopia, should give us pause.
        Pause yes, despair no!

        Steven Pinker in his ‘The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined’ makes the point that: “Today we may be living in the most peaceful moment in our species' existence"... He shows that "despite the ceaseless news about war, crime, and terrorism, violence has actually been in decline over long stretches of history". Exploding myths about humankind's inherent violence and the curse of modernity this ambitious book continues Pinker's exploration of the essence of human nature, mixing psychology and history to provide a remarkable picture of an increasingly enlightened world. From the product description!
        Last edited by Tassman; 04-20-2014, 12:25 AM.
        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
          Pause yes, despair no!
          Agreed. I don't deny that people can or do learn from the past what I am rather suspicious of is the idea of inevitable progress toward a (moral) utopia.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
            Pause yes, despair no!

            Steven Pinker in his ‘The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined’ makes the point that: “Today we may be living in the most peaceful moment in our species' existence"... He shows that "despite the ceaseless news about war, crime, and terrorism, violence has actually been in decline over long stretches of history". Exploding myths about humankind's inherent violence and the curse of modernity this ambitious book continues Pinker's exploration of the essence of human nature, mixing psychology and history to provide a remarkable picture of an increasingly enlightened world. From the product description!
            Glass half empty, glass half full. Tell it to the victims of Pol Pot, Stalin, Hitler, etc.
            Last edited by RBerman; 04-21-2014, 07:16 AM.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Paprika View Post
              Agreed. I don't deny that people can or do learn from the past what I am rather suspicious of is the idea of inevitable progress toward a (moral) utopia.
              Utopia is the Christian idea. Eden was to be the utopia, but the Bible describes that the first couple couldn't even manage it. How then were thousands of resulting generations to do it? Even the second generation was already committing fratricide and vigilanteism. Is that a myth?


              Education and reproductive control (responsible family planning) won't achieve moral utopia, but simply increase happiness and quality of life. Belief in utopia is as naive today as it was in Eden (if you believe Eden was literal).
              Last edited by whag; 04-20-2014, 09:50 AM.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by whag View Post
                Utopia is the Christian idea. Eden was to be the utopia, but the Bible describes that the first couple couldn't even manage it. How then were thousands of resulting generations to do it? Even the second generation was already committing fratricide and vigilanteism. Is that a myth?


                Education and reproductive control (responsible family planning) won't achieve moral utopia, but simply increase happiness and quality of life. Belief in utopia is as naive today as it was in Eden (if you believe Eden was literal).
                Belief in utopia isn't naive. What's naive is the belief that man can by man's own effort accomplish utopia on earth which many Marxists and members of other groups believed last century. That turned out pretty well.

                Comment


                • It is an truth, inconvenient for many, that the Marxists - a great majority atheiests - looked at history, thought they knew what was wrong, and they knew what to do; they knew how to "progress" towards a utopia, to make it happen on earth. The results were as expected.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                    Belief in utopia isn't naive. What's naive is the belief that man can by man's own effort accomplish utopia on earth which many Marxists and members of other groups believed last century. That turned out pretty well.
                    Utopia isn't the point, man by his very nature will suffer to a certain extent, but man can by his own efforts make a better world for himself to live in. For examples of this just look at the differences within different existing cultures.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                      Belief in utopia isn't naive.
                      Yes, it is naive. Eden was supposed to be that utopia. The first couple couldn't even hack it, according to your myth. The second generation was already murdering. Do you believe this was a myth?

                      Originally posted by Paprika
                      What's naive is the belief that man can by man's own effort accomplish utopia on earth which many Marxists and members of other groups believed last century. That turned out pretty well.
                      Utopia isn't possible given our biology. We are Imperfect primates, like all animals. What IS possible is increasing education (all despots are against that) and lowering poverty (despots love ghettos) through responsible family planning, something mainly conservative Abrahamic theists are against. You keep ignoring that for a reason.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                        Utopia isn't the point, man by his very nature will suffer to a certain extent, but man can by his own efforts make a better world for himself to live in. For examples of this just look at the differences within different existing cultures.
                        That's exactly right. Pap is a binary thinker, so she thinks the only acceptable non theistic society would be have to be Utopia, which is a strawman.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by whag View Post
                          Yes, it is naive. Eden was supposed to be that utopia. The first couple couldn't even hack it, according to your myth. The second generation was already murdering. Do you believe this was a myth?
                          Of course it's a myth in the technical sense. But I know what you're asking, and yes, I do believe it's true.

                          Utopia isn't possible given our biology. We are Imperfect primates, like all animals. What IS possible is increasing education (all despots are against that) and lowering poverty (despots love ghettos) through responsible family planning, something mainly conservative Abrahamic theists are against. You keep ignoring that for a reason.
                          I would be interested to see actual data demonstrating that. Taking 'conservative' in a theological sense, I am a conservative Abrahamic theist and those in my country generally aren't against responsible family planning, so I really don't get where you're coming from.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by whag View Post
                            That's exactly right. Pap is a binary thinker, so she thinks the only acceptable non theistic society would be have to be Utopia, which is a strawman.

                            I've never said that.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                              Utopia isn't the point, man by his very nature will suffer to a certain extent, but man can by his own efforts make a better world for himself to live in. For examples of this just look at the differences within different existing cultures.
                              As I said to Tassman: "Agreed. I don't deny that people can or do learn from the past; what I am rather suspicious of is the idea of inevitable progress toward a (moral) utopia".

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                                Of course it's a myth in the technical sense. But I know what you're asking, and yes, I do believe it's true.
                                True in the sense Adam and Eve were the first people?


                                Originally posted by Paprika
                                I would be interested to see actual data demonstrating that. Taking 'conservative' in a theological sense, I am a conservative Abrahamic theist and those in my country generally aren't against responsible family planning, so I really don't get where you're coming from.
                                I already did, but you didn't acknowledge it.

                                http://www.ted.com/talks/hans_roslin...ons_and_babies

                                So you acknowledge the vast data that education and family planning lift the floor of poverty? Who opposes birth control other than the dogmatic? Certain atheists don't.

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by whag, 03-27-2024, 03:01 PM
                                39 responses
                                192 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post whag
                                by whag
                                 
                                Started by whag, 03-17-2024, 04:55 PM
                                21 responses
                                132 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                                Started by whag, 03-14-2024, 06:04 PM
                                80 responses
                                428 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post tabibito  
                                Started by whag, 03-13-2024, 12:06 PM
                                45 responses
                                305 views
                                1 like
                                Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                                Started by rogue06, 12-26-2023, 11:05 AM
                                406 responses
                                2,518 views
                                2 likes
                                Last Post tabibito  
                                Working...
                                X