What must I do to be Born Again?

[Paprika]

Sort of. The Christian Testament actually misquotes Isaiah. In the Christian Testament (Mark 9), the body of the person cast into hell does not die along with the worm. This is actually another clue that the Christian Testament is a rework of common Jewish themes, even if done clumsily.

When in Mark 9 are the people cast into hell depicted as alive?

[Paprika]

It may seem like a small point, but I find it very interesting that the composers of the Christian Testament could not even interpret their own ancient texts. To be fair, they were working from a Greek translation of the Hebrew, so...

Strange. You seem to be okay with the fact that later Jews come to new understandings of the OT as in the Talmud, but when the NT authors do similarly it's a failure in their intepretational abilities.

[firstfloor]

No, I don't. Just because you have a twisted view of God doesn't mean I do.

Talking about twisted views; this is from Devotions.com,
http://www.devotions.com/2006/09/fee...-from-god.html

“The strange irony of becoming a Christian is we realize how unworthy we really are of the salvation we enjoy. Our pass to heaven comes through, and only through, the redemptive work of Jesus. What a relief to know that there’s nothing we can do, or ever do, to measure up to the favour that we have received. However, the devil uses that realization to convince us that we are also not worthy enough to serve God in the ways he calls us to serve him. It’s a lie that haunts a lot of Christians, including me.”

This sort of confusion is what happens when religion teaches guilt. Once you accept your guilt, you are under control.

[RBerman]

No kidding. I said the difference is that in Mark, the PEOPLE are still alive. In Isaiah, the people are DEAD - CORPSES.

The focus in Mark 9 is not on whether the people are alive or dead. Presumably within the internal logic of Jesus' figure of speech, living people cast into the fire and being eaten by worms have become dead. This is where Remonstrant is going with his annihilationist posts, although as you say, the language in Revelation encourages us to interpret "death" and "destruction" in ways compatible with a continuing experience of torment, which is also probably what Jesus intends in Mark 9.

I take it I answered your questions in post #21, since you moved on without responding?

[Cow Poke]

Talking about twisted views; this is from Devotions.com,
http://www.devotions.com/2006/09/fee...-from-god.html

“The strange irony of becoming a Christian is we realize how unworthy we really are of the salvation we enjoy. Our pass to heaven comes through, and only through, the redemptive work of Jesus. What a relief to know that there’s nothing we can do, or ever do, to measure up to the favour that we have received. However, the devil uses that realization to convince us that we are also not worthy enough to serve God in the ways he calls us to serve him. It’s a lie that haunts a lot of Christians, including me.”

This sort of confusion is what happens when religion teaches guilt. Once you accept your guilt, you are under control.

I cleaned out my car this morning and found 37 cents!

[firstfloor]

I cleaned out my car this morning and found 37 cents!

Not quite enough for a hamburger then. Pity.
Damn, I’m going to have to eat something now.

[Cow Poke]

Not quite enough for a hamburger then. Pity.
Damn, I’m going to have to eat something now.

I made some Chicken & Sausage Gumbo.

[NormATive]

When in Mark 9 are the people cast into hell depicted as alive?

So, is it your contention that the Christian Testament does NOT teach that the unrepentant are sent to hell alive? How does a corpse weep and wail and gnash it's teeth?

NORM

[NormATive]

I would not include item 3 (Live according to his teaching) as something we must do to earn salvation. But it is a characteristic of those who satisfy 1 and 2. It would not make sense to trust Jesus for eternity but disregard him in this life. In that sense, item 3 in your list is evidentiary with respect to salvation rather than efficacious.

I do not see how you can excise #3 from your formula. Quite a bit of what the Christian Testament documents about the person of Jesus is how we ought to live - which appears to me a deeper understanding of The Law - following not merely the letter, but the intent. This is exactly what Hillel was teaching. He taught that it is not enough to memorize a bunch of laws, but to internalize them, and understand them for what G-d intended.

The dietary laws are a good example. By adhering to a Kosher diet, I've all but eliminated the dangers of food poisoning. Meat and dairy are kept separate from everything else - thus; no contamination!

The laws on how to share property, forgive debts, pay recompense for those you've wronged, etc... are also good illustrations of what I think Jesus was all about. I think Christians miss the boat by simply excusing themselves from adherence to The Law.

NORM

[Paprika]

So, is it your contention that the Christian Testament does NOT teach that the unrepentant are sent to hell alive? How does a corpse weep and wail and gnash it's teeth?

That is not my claim. My point is that Mark 9 doesn't say if the unrepentant are dead or alive in hell.

[NormATive]

I would say that it's a metaphor for dying and coming into new life.

How so? Please elaborate.

NORM

[RBerman]

I do not see how you can excise #3 from your formula. Quite a bit of what the Christian Testament documents about the person of Jesus is how we ought to live - which appears to me a deeper understanding of The Law - following not merely the letter, but the intent. This is exactly what Hillel was teaching. He taught that it is not enough to memorize a bunch of laws, but to internalize them, and understand them for what G-d intended. The dietary laws are a good example. By adhering to a Kosher diet, I've all but eliminated the dangers of food poisoning. Meat and dairy are kept separate from everything else - thus; no contamination! The laws on how to share property, forgive debts, pay recompense for those you've wronged, etc... are also good illustrations of what I think Jesus was all about. I think Christians miss the boat by simply excusing themselves from adherence to The Law.

1) I wasn't speaking of Christians being excused from adherence to the Law, in the sense that they don't need to think about the Law. I was speaking of Christians not seeing adherence to the Law as a means of earning God's approval. Christians would indeed miss the boat if they thought that the forgiveness of their sins makes it irrelevant how they live their lives.

2) Jesus' teaching on the Law does include the importance of intent. His endorsement of the ceremonial aspects of the law was less, shall we say, fervent:

And [Jesus] called the people to him again and said to them, “Hear me, all of you, and understand: There is nothing outside a person that by going into him can defile him, but the things that come out of a person are what defile him.” And when he had entered the house and left the people, his disciples asked him about the parable. And he said to them, “Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile him, since it enters not his heart but his stomach, and is expelled?” (Thus he declared all foods clean.) And he said, “What comes out of a person is what defiles him. For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.” (Mark 7:14-23)

This ambivalence toward the ceremonial laws such as diet and holidays carries over into Paul's epistles as well, which is why Christians hold that those aspects of the law, which separated Jews from Gentiles, have ended now that Jews and Gentiles are one in Christ. However the overriding moral principles of, say, the Decalogue, remain in force, for they reflect God's eternal character and the way He has created man to function best.

So yes, Christians must keep the Laws which did not serve to separate out Jews from the rest of the world. But the keeping of those Laws is not something that earns us God's good favor, which is why I did not include it in the list of things by which we obtain the "free gift."

[OingoBoingo]

This ambivalence toward the ceremonial laws such as diet and holidays carries over into Paul's epistles as well, which is why Christians hold that those aspects of the law, which separated Jews from Gentiles, have ended now that Jews and Gentiles are one in Christ. However the overriding moral principles of, say, the Decalogue, remain in force, for they reflect God's eternal character and the way He has created man to function best.

I don't think I've ever heard it put quite that way before. I like it.

[Paprika]

I don't think I've ever heard it put quite that way before. I like it.

"For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility."

[The Remonstrant]

What to do with these Christian Testament scriptures, then?

Matthew 13:24-30,36-43. It find it interesting that you cited only Matt.13:42 in your post above (#27). The verse must be read in its broader context. I have written a paper addressing this text: "Purging the Kingdom: Jesus' Interpretation of the Parable of the Wheat & Tares in Matthew 13".¹ A major part of the hurdle to get over is how the phrase "weeping and gnashing of teeth" is often misconstrued as ongoing torment in "hell". In actuality, such a notion is demonstrably false.

Matthew 25:46. Verses 31-46 is primarily a sober word exhortation to Jesus' students to faithful discipleship. Whereas the faithful will inherit the Kingdom of Heaven/God (v.34), the unfaithful will be cast off (v.41). In v.46 aiōnios ("eternal"/age-lasting) punishment and life are contrasted. Some are welcomed into the Kingdom, others are irrevocably excluded. What is the precise nature of the punishment? Does it entail perpetual torment? While this notion is usually taken for granted by advocates of the conventional view of final punishment, this assumption is unfounded. If you are interested, I have written "An Overview of Final Punishment in Matthew's Gospel".²

Revelation 21:8. First, it should be noted that the imagery of burning sulfur hails back to Genesis 19 of the Hebrew Scriptures and God's judgement against Sodom and Gomorrah (vv.23-29). Without a doubt, the destruction of these cities was complete (vv.27-29, Luke 17:28,29; 2 Peter 2:6). (The closest parallel we have to Revelation's "lake of fire" is "the river" or "stream of fire" in Daniel 7:10.) Second, "the second death" clarifies the meaning of the nature or function "the lake of fire" serves in the Apocalypse. Like the fate of the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, after the final judgement the unrighteous will be no more.³ Third, the first usage of "the second death" in Revelation is instructive. Jesus admonishes the church in Smyrna:

"Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who conquers will not be hurt by the second death.'" (2:10,11 ESV)

The two deaths in view parallel each other, the key difference being that the second death is final. Jesus promises his faithful disciples that they will ultimately be rewarded with life even if their present lives are ended in persecution as his saints. After having died and being raised never to die again, Jesus has "the keys of Death and Hades"/the Grave. It is in his power to grant life and to take it away.


Notes

¹ http://theremonstrant.blogspot.com/2...tation-of.html

² http://www.afterlife.co.nz/2014/theo...tthews-gospel/

³ The cosmological implications of final annihilation are beautiful. The new heavens and the new earth will forever be untainted by sin, rebellion, sickness, pain, sadness, death and disease. There will be no room in God's renewed creation for the existence of evil or any of its ill effects. These are the first things that will have passed away (cf. Revelation 21:4).