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What must I do to be Born Again?

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  • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
    Gifts must be willingly received. How else can it be a gift? Can you accept a gift if you reject it (not believe it)? Or that it is not really there?
    No they don't. It's still a gift even if not received. It requires nothing of the recipient - certainly, one doesn't PUNISH someone for not receiving a gift.

    Besides, we are talking about a supernatural time-warping gift - one that shouldn't REQUIRE acceptance in order to "make it stick." If this gift is conditional (upon them acknowledging it, etc.), then it is not really given in the spirit in which a gift is given.

    Your "salvation" is not a gift. It seems more like a requirement.

    NORM
    When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu

    Comment


    • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
      If one doesn't believe the physician, will that one get the treatment?
      It can happen.

      Originally posted by 37818 View Post
      Likely not.
      The likelihood with which a treatment may be administered is unrelated to any question about its efficacy. If we want to know whether a treatment is efficacious, then all we should care about is the outcome in those cases where it actually is administered.

      Originally posted by 37818 View Post
      Yet, no one knowingly accepts anything they knowingly do not believe.
      That depends on what you mean by "accepts." I will not voluntarily pay for any treatment that I think is worthless, especially if don't think I have the disease that it is supposed to cure. However, if I am credibly assured that the treatment is actually without any cost of any kind, and if I think it is possible that I have the disease, then I might tell the provider to go ahead and administer it to me.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by NormATive View Post
        No they don't. It's still a gift even if not received. It requires nothing of the recipient - certainly, one doesn't PUNISH someone for not receiving a gift.
        Yes. a gift does not stop being a gift by not being received. And that one is punished by reason of not receiving a gift is a false premise on your part. Now, all sinners are to be punished for sin. That punishment is earned. (Ezekiel 18:4). The gift is someone else receiving that payment. If that gift of someone else receiving the payment on the other's behalf and if the recipient refuses that. then the original recipient is entitled to what was earned.
        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

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        • Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren View Post
          God's choice is His prerogative.
          Even if it means sending unelect babies to hell. RBerman already explained to us divine choice and prerogative.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
            Yes. a gift does not stop being a gift by not being received. And that one is punished by reason of not receiving a gift is a false premise on your part. Now, all sinners are to be punished for sin. That punishment is earned. (Ezekiel 18:4). The gift is someone else receiving that payment. If that gift of someone else receiving the payment on the other's behalf and if the recipient refuses that. then the original recipient is entitled to what was earned.
            There are a lot of "earned" things in that statement. Sounds like a works-based faith to me.

            Also, since the premise of being punished for rejecting the gift is incorrect on my part - are you arguing for universalism?

            NORM
            When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. - Bishop Desmond Tutu

            Comment


            • Originally posted by whag View Post
              How is a baby expected to have faith?
              Babies respond with trust to the sound and smell of their parents. Do you have some special knowledge about the spiritual faculties of babies? What is the origin of this knowledge?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by NormATive View Post
                So, salvation ISN'T a free gift. Agreed. Now we can stop this silly nonsense about this new covenant.
                Three times now I have explained the context in which salvation is described as a "free gift," and in contrast to what. If you are going to respond as if your questions have not been addressed, there does not seem to be much point in further interaction.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by RBerman View Post
                  Babies respond with trust to the sound and smell of their parents. Do you have some special knowledge about the spiritual faculties of babies? What is the origin of this knowledge?
                  Chimps also respond with trust to the sound and smell of their parents, and it doesn't make them spiritual.

                  It sounds like you're the one claiming special knowledge, since few people would argue that babies deserve punishment at all, especially not ECT or fire or whatever.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by whag View Post
                    Chimps also respond with trust to the sound and smell of their parents, and it doesn't make them spiritual. It sounds like you're the one claiming special knowledge, since few people would argue that babies deserve punishment at all, especially not ECT or fire or whatever.
                    I do claim that the Bible gives us such knowledge. If you are prepared to accept the Bible as an authority to be obeyed and trusted, I would be happy to elaborate.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by RBerman View Post
                      I do claim that the Bible gives us such knowledge. If you are prepared to accept the Bible as an authority to be obeyed and trusted, I would be happy to elaborate.
                      You can do that later, but please first address my reply about smell and trust. You said that the smell/trust relationship indicated spiritual faculties. That explanation was meant to explain that babies have the faculties to hate God. Please explain.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by NormATive View Post
                        No they don't. It's still a gift even if not received. It requires nothing of the recipient - certainly, one doesn't PUNISH someone for not receiving a gift.

                        Besides, we are talking about a supernatural time-warping gift - one that shouldn't REQUIRE acceptance in order to "make it stick." If this gift is conditional (upon them acknowledging it, etc.), then it is not really given in the spirit in which a gift is given.

                        Your "salvation" is not a gift. It seems more like a requirement.

                        NORM
                        Excellent point about "gift". The problem with anthropomorphizing it is that it doesn't translate too well, since human givers would hardly be justified in punishing someone who rejected their gift. These are why such comparisons fail.
                        Last edited by whag; 04-24-2014, 11:41 AM.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by whag View Post
                          You can do that later, but please first address my reply about smell and trust. You said that the smell/trust relationship indicated spiritual faculties. That explanation was meant to explain that babies have the faculties to hate God. Please explain.
                          I think RBerman is saying that faith is just...trust. No spiritual faculties are required?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by whag View Post
                            Excellent point about "gift". The problem with anthropomorphizing it is that it doesn't translate too well, since human givers would hardly be justified in punishing someone who rejected their gift. These are why such comparisons fail.
                            Probably depends on the context. You're probably imagining something like a Christmas present. In your scenario, you've invited someone to your house, and as they step in, they offer you a gift. You refuse the gift, and then, in indignance, your guest puts an axe through your head for being ungrateful.

                            That doesn't appear to be the scenario the other posters are imagining at all though. The other posters imagine a scenario closer to something like this: You live in a monarchy. You've been caught red-handed in an act of treason. The penalty for treason within this monarchy is capital punishment. As you walk slowly to the gallows an ambassador of the monarch steps in front of you and informs you that the monarch has offered you the gift of a pardon, if only you'll swear loyalty to him. You ignore the ambassador and his mention of the monarch's gift, and continue to the gallows to receive your due punishment.
                            Last edited by OingoBoingo; 04-24-2014, 12:13 PM.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by OingoBoingo View Post
                              I think RBerman is saying that faith is just...trust. No spiritual faculties are required?
                              The post in question describes the smell/trust relationship as a spiritual faculty. Consider the context of my discussion with RBerman. He posits that all babies rage against god in their hearts, meaning that unelect babies get what they deserve for hating god. I argue that takes more than smell receptors and trust. Chimps and puppies have smell receptors and trust.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by OingoBoingo View Post
                                Probably depends on the context. You're probably imagining something like a Christmas present. In your scenario, you've invited someone to your house, and as they step in, they offer you a gift. You refuse the gift, and then, in indignance, your guest puts an axe through your head for being ungrateful.

                                That doesn't appear to be the scenario the other posters are imagining at all though. The other posters imagine a scenario closer to something like this: You live in a monarchy. You've been caught red-handed in an act of treason. The penalty for treason within this monarchy is capital punishment. As you walk slowly to the gallows an ambassador of the monarch steps in front of you and informs you that the monarch has offered you the gift of a pardon, if only you'll swear loyalty to him. You ignore the ambassador and his mention of the monarch's gift, and continue to the gallows to receive your due punishment.
                                That context has problems if you apply it to the real world. Being a Muslim, Mormon, or atheist doesn't constitute anything like a crime. The former are beliefs that derive from upbringing and/or enculturation; the latter is simply skepticism of religion.

                                Comment

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