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Christianity as History Theft

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  • Christianity as History Theft

    Some while ago I watched a science fiction movie called Primer. It had a fantastically complicated plot and a few people tried to sketch out the timeline. It is here if you are interested.
    http://unrealitymag.com/index.php/20...ne-for-primer/

    Recently I came across a discussion about Psalm 22. Christians claim some lines in Psalm 22 refer to Christ’s crucifixion even though the dates rule that out in any ordinary view of causation. This made me wonder if Christianity has a plot timeline similar to Primer and if so, what it was. What, in fact, is the plot of Christianity? The answer, I think, is that there is none – nothing that could be written down ‘Primer’ fashion without enormous holes in it.

    What I realized is that Psalm 22 for Christianity is a type of history theft. It is a reinterpretation of an older culture because we know for certain that Psalm 22 already had meaning in the culture from which it came. It was essentially a lament, not intended to be about the future. But the theft is done lazily; there is no effort made to explain it except endless repetition of the reinterpretation itself. If this is not true, what plot explains the Psalm?
    “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
    “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
    “not all there” - you know who you are

  • #2
    This should be in the poop deck.
    That's what
    - She

    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
    - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
    Stephen R. Donaldson

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
      It was essentially a lament, not intended to be about the future.
      This is conclusive that you haven't read the psalm and are out to troll.

      All the ends of the world
      Shall remember and turn to the Lord,
      And all the families of the nations
      Shall worship before You.
      For the kingdom is the Lord’s,
      And He rules over the nations.
      All the prosperous of the earth
      Shall eat and worship;
      All those who go down to the dust
      Shall bow before Him,
      Even he who cannot keep himself alive.
      A posterity shall serve Him.
      It will be recounted of the Lord to the next generation,
      They will come and declare His righteousness to a people who will be born,
      That He has done this.

      Comment


      • #4
        If this is a genuine question, which I highly doubt, I would recommend doing some reading on NT appropriation of OT passages.
        "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
          If this is a genuine question, which I highly doubt, I would recommend doing some reading on NT appropriation of OT passages.
          I am not enquiring about the Psalm itself. I am asking about the plot by which it goes from David’s lament to a Prophesy about Christ. Is there one? If there is a plot (a narrative of the creation and discovery of the Prophesy – who knew what and when) I don’t think it is in The Bible. This is a serious question. I will search in the area suggested. Starting here:
          http://www.bible-researcher.com/nicole.html
          Last edited by firstfloor; 04-01-2014, 11:49 AM.
          “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
          “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
          “not all there” - you know who you are

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
            I am not enquiring about the Psalm itself. I am asking about the plot by which it goes from David’s lament to a Prophesy about Christ. Is there one? If there is a plot (a narrative of the creation and discovery of the Prophesy – who knew what and when) I don’t think it is in The Bible. This is a serious question. I will search in the area suggested. Starting here:
            http://www.bible-researcher.com/nicole.html
            Actually an enquiry of the Psalm itself in the context of whole text around it is necessary.
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Paprika View Post
              This is conclusive that you haven't read the psalm and are out to troll.
              Accusations of troll are unwarranted. I will cite the context of the Psalms in the whole text with commentary of Hebrew scholars. I do not believe it was intended in the Jewish context and translation in the manner Christians interpreted it.

              Christians generally claim verses 1 through 19 refer to Christian prophesy for Christ, in part for the famous lament by Christ on the cross, Psalms 22-1 "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?'

              I contend that you have to take the whole chapter Psalm 22 in the same context, and compare the Jewish and Christian understanding of the whole chapter..
              Last edited by shunyadragon; 04-01-2014, 01:18 PM.
              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

              go with the flow the river knows . . .

              Frank

              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                This is conclusive that you haven't read the psalm and are out to troll.
                How is it that Psalm 22 has no meaning until it reaches Jesus on the cross? Do you see the problem?
                “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                “not all there” - you know who you are

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                  How is it that Psalm 22 has no meaning until it reaches Jesus on the cross?
                  Who has claimed that? Certainly not me.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                    How is it that Psalm 22 has no meaning until it reaches Jesus on the cross? Do you see the problem?
                    What, exactly, is the problem with an open-ended prophecy being closed? Does gravity have no meaning until Isaac Newton diagrammed it?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                      Actually an enquiry of the Psalm itself in the context of whole text around it is necessary.
                      Thanks. I am having a read of this paper:
                      http://www.bibleinterp.com/PDFs/Psalm_22.pdf
                      It has this -
                      “Prior to the attestation in the New Testament, there is no evidence of Psalm 22 being used in a Jewish messianic context. This Psalm became the preferred focus of Christian fulfillment interpretation in regard to the dying Christian Messiah, while in Judaism single lemmata from the Psalm began to be viewed as having salvific potential, culminating in describing the affliction of a Jewish Messiah.”
                      “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                      “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                      “not all there” - you know who you are

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                        Thanks. I am having a read of this paper:
                        http://www.bibleinterp.com/PDFs/Psalm_22.pdf
                        It has this -
                        “Prior to the attestation in the New Testament, there is no evidence of Psalm 22 being used in a Jewish messianic context. This Psalm became the preferred focus of Christian fulfillment interpretation in regard to the dying Christian Messiah, while in Judaism single lemmata from the Psalm began to be viewed as having salvific potential, culminating in describing the affliction of a Jewish Messiah.”
                        Are you deliberately missing the point? It's not about a messiah, nor do Christians believe that it must be. It's about the glory of God, and God's servant declaring his trust in Him even in the midst of suffering. The point is not that it was intended by the author as prophecy, but that Christ, on the cross, declares that his trust in God is in fact unshaken.
                        Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                          Who has claimed that? Certainly not me.
                          Actually, that is what is claimed by prophesy. If it is about the future, actually, rather than just a wish about the future (anyone can write hopeful prose or poetry), then it has no meaning in the present. It is a revelation of events out of context. Alternately, if it (Psalm 22 in this case) has meaning in its own time then that is where its true meaning is, even if future events resemble the circumstances in some way. Typically, a piece of poetry, because it tends to be non-specific, without named people, dates and places, can be descriptive of all manner of actual situations.
                          “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                          “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                          “not all there” - you know who you are

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                            Are you deliberately missing the point? It's not about a messiah, nor do Christians believe that it must be. It's about the glory of God, and God's servant declaring his trust in Him even in the midst of suffering. The point is not that it was intended by the author as prophecy, but that Christ, on the cross, declares that his trust in God is in fact unshaken.
                            That is rather different to the way I thought Christians understood it, especially “They have pierced my hands and my feet”, I thought was supposed to be a preview of Christ’s crucifixion.
                            “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                            “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                            “not all there” - you know who you are

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                              If it is about the future, actually, rather than just a wish about the future (anyone can write hopeful prose or poetry), then it has no meaning in the present. It is a revelation of events out of context. Alternately, if it (Psalm 22 in this case) has meaning in its own time then that is where its true meaning is, even if future events resemble the circumstances in some way.
                              A most interesting dichotomy you've set up there. Care to support it using scholarly analysis of how the Jews regarded prophecy?

                              Comment

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