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The Quran may in part be from earlier source according to Tom Holland

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  • The Quran may in part be from earlier source according to Tom Holland

    I am not allowed to post in the Islamic section, because I was 'forced' to take the agnostic belief label. Therefore I am starting a thread here to discuss this topic here. The previous thread gave brief incorrect citation without a source.

    Source: http://www.npr.org/2012/06/03/153989366/shadow-new-light-on-islamic-history



    Lightning from a clear sky — that's how historians have described the rise of Islam. Stories say the Prophet Muhammad received his revelations from the Angel Gabriel deep in the Arabian desert, hundreds of miles away from any outside influences. The Prophet was even said to be illiterate and therefore free of the taint of other religious writings.

    That origin story is supported by a scaffolding of commentaries and biographies of the Prophet stretching back through the centuries. But historian Tom Holland has reexamined those sources and come to a different conclusion. His new book, In the Shadow of the Sword, places the rise of Islam within the context of the Roman and Persian empires of late antiquity.

    "The whole point of the Muslim story is that Islam is a new beginning, that it owes nothing to the decadent empires and religions that lie farther to the north," Holland tells NPR's Guy Raz. "The problem with that story is that all the sources that are written by Muslims date to ... at the earliest, 200 years after the lifetime of Muhammad."

    Holland says that while there's no doubt some historical accuracy in the sources for early Islam, those documents are more likely to be reflecting conditions at the time of their writing in the ninth and 10th centuries. And the Prophet lived early in the seventh century, a time that Holland says historians must consider in order to understand the birth of Islam.

    "When you do that, you realize that Islam is palpably, bears the trace elements of Jewish and Christian belief, and not only Jewish and Christian belief but a whole range of heresies: Samaritans, Manichaeans, Jewish Christians, Christian Jews," Holland says.

    If you believe the Quran is the word of God, Holland says, then explaining the inconsistencies is easy: All things are possible to God. "If you're not a Muslim, then you have to try and explain where these elements in the Quran might possibly have come from, and that really is what I'm trying to do."

    One answer may lie with the Prophet himself, whom Holland suggests was not, in fact, illiterate. "If you look at the Quran itself, there is a passage in which it is strongly implied that Muhammad can not only read, but that he can write," Holland says. "The Quran is an incredibly literate response to the currents of the age."

    © Copyright Original Source



    First, as a Baha'i I have no problem with parts of the scripture of the Quran being from earlier sources, as the same as I have no problem with the Old Testament being in part a compilation of earlier Babylonian and Canaanite/Ugarit sources, and parts of the gospels from earlier oral and written sources possible Q.

    I consider the description of the origins of the Quran to be a traditional description the same as how Traditional Judaism, and Christianity considers how the origin of their scripture, which as academic scholars now conclude the authorship and dates of origin of the OT and NT are not what Traditional believers believe. For example: Genesis and Exodus were not mostly written by Moses, but represent an edited compilation including older non-Hebrew sources after ~600 BCE.

    This view is not new with Tom Holland, and only controversial with fundamentalist Islamic believers in the same manner the contemporary scholarly view of the origins of the OT and NT is controversial among fundamentalist Christians,
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  • #2
    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Source: http://www.npr.org/2012/06/03/153989366/shadow-new-light-on-islamic-history



    Lightning from a clear sky — that's how historians have described the rise of Islam.

    © Copyright Original Source

    No matter how you want to describe any historical event, you can find "some historians" who have so described it. I have read many accounts, by many writers, of Islam's origins, and not one has conveyed any sense of "lightning from a clear sky" or in any other way suggested that it was contrary to expectations.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
      No matter how you want to describe any historical event, you can find "some historians" who have so described it. I have read many accounts, by many writers, of Islam's origins, and not one has conveyed any sense of "lightning from a clear sky" or in any other way suggested that it was contrary to expectations.
      Nearly every single thing I've read about it readily concedes that early Islam was heavily influenced by other religions ranging from Zoroastrianism to Christianity (particularly sects considered heretical or unorthodox like Nestorians).

      I'm always still in trouble again

      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

      Comment


      • #4
        Further, I don't understand what difference Muhammad being illiterate makes, especially in cultures in which oral tradition was so important. Just because he couldn't read about something hardly means he could not hear about it. It is like claiming that Homer could not have composed the Iliad because being blind he could not read.

        Also, I distinctly remember reading that Muhammad's father-in-law and senior companion (Sahabi), Abu Bakr, is reported to have declared that just before he died Muhammad requested writing implements so that he could write down the name of his successor. Funny thing to do if he was illiterate.

        ETA: Further al-Bukhari's Hadith (one of the most revered) says that Muhammad wrote his marriage contract with 'Aisha (Abu Bakr's daughter).
        Last edited by rogue06; 10-02-2017, 12:09 AM.

        I'm always still in trouble again

        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
          I am not allowed to post in the Islamic section, because I was 'forced' to take the agnostic belief label. Therefore I am starting a thread here to discuss this topic here. The previous thread gave brief incorrect citation without a source.

          [cite=http://www.npr.org/2012/06/03/153989366/shadow-new-light-on-islamic-history]

          ....
          First, as a Baha'i I have no problem with parts of the scripture of the Quran being from earlier sources, as the same as I have no problem with the Old Testament being in part a compilation of earlier Babylonian and Canaanite/Ugarit sources, and parts of the gospels from earlier oral and written sources possible Q.

          I consider the description of the origins of the Quran to be a traditional description the same as how Traditional Judaism, and Christianity considers how the origin of their scripture, which as academic scholars now conclude the authorship and dates of origin of the OT and NT are not what Traditional believers believe. For example: Genesis and Exodus were not mostly written by Moses, but represent an edited compilation including older non-Hebrew sources after ~600 BCE.

          This view is not new with Tom Holland, and only controversial with fundamentalist Islamic believers in the same manner the contemporary scholarly view of the origins of the OT and NT is controversial among fundamentalist Christians,
          @Shuny---if it were upto me, I would welcome you and other Atheists who might be interested in a dialogue or conversation....
          However, I do not have much patience with Holland...unfortunately...

          @ General
          The Quran has no problems with stories---it says that it uses all kinds of stories. I have no problem with Quranic stories either---and I think much similarity can also be found with Taoism, Buddhism, Confucianism...and such Eastern Wisdom Teachings. Muslims do not claim that Islam is a "new" religion, rather that God's wisdom is reflected in all teachings from the time of Prophet Adam (pbuh).

          The criteria for what makes the Quran "Divine speech" (for Muslims) is not "prophesy" (foretelling the future), or history, or wisdom/ethics or intertextuality, ...etc...it is its unique literary excellence. It has yet to be replicated (in terms of its grammatical/literary structure---this structure is neither prose nor poetry but is unique genre) A translation is not "the Quran" (Divine Speech) it is Tafsir. Therefore, previous stories are retold within a Quranic worldview/framework (=Tawheed), and this is not a problem for Muslims.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by siam View Post
            @Shuny---if it were upto me, I would welcome you and other Atheists who might be interested in a dialogue or conversation....
            However, I do not have much patience with Holland...unfortunately...
            I am not an atheist. I do not agree with Holland completely. He is overly dramatic, and includes too many hypothetical conclusions. I used his reference to start the conversation, because of the other thread I could not respond to.

            @ General
            The Quran has no problems with stories---it says that it uses all kinds of stories. I have no problem with Quranic stories either---and I think much similarity can also be found with Taoism, Buddhism, Confucianism...and such Eastern Wisdom Teachings. Muslims do not claim that Islam is a "new" religion, rather that God's wisdom is reflected in all teachings from the time of Prophet Adam (pbuh).

            The criteria for what makes the Quran "Divine speech" (for Muslims) is not "prophesy" (foretelling the future), or history, or wisdom/ethics or intertextuality, ...etc...it is its unique literary excellence. It has yet to be replicated (in terms of its grammatical/literary structure---this structure is neither prose nor poetry but is unique genre) A translation is not "the Quran" (Divine Speech) it is Tafsir. Therefore, previous stories are retold within a Quranic worldview/framework (=Tawheed), and this is not a problem for Muslims.
            OK, but I do consider the Quran to be for an age now gone, and now violently divided and unable to meet the needs of the contemporary world.
            Last edited by shunyadragon; 10-02-2017, 07:21 PM.
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by siam View Post
              its unique literary excellence.
              Literary excellence makes for effective communication of the author's ideas. It has nothing to do with the likelihood of those ideas being true.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                I am not an atheist. I do not agree with Holland completely. He is overly dramatic, and includes too many hypothetical conclusions. I used his reference to start the conversation, because of the other thread I could not respond to.



                OK, but I do consider the Quran to be for an age now gone, and now violently divided and unable to meet the needs of the contemporary world.
                ---That would depend on the interpretation...wouldn't it?

                Have you heard of Todd Lawson?...he is a Bahai and he was giving an interesting talk about Bahai and the Quran....
                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Hd0fWhmf1s

                what is your opinion of it?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
                  Literary excellence makes for effective communication of the author's ideas. It has nothing to do with the likelihood of those ideas being true.
                  How would you define "true" ?
                  what makes any "idea" (ideas are an abstraction) "true" ?
                  would you say "wisdom" (timeless truths) exist? (for ex---do unto others as you would have them do unto you....)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by siam View Post
                    ---That would depend on the interpretation...wouldn't it?

                    Have you heard of Todd Lawson?...he is a Bahai and he was giving an interesting talk about Bahai and the Quran....
                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Hd0fWhmf1s

                    what is your opinion of it?
                    I have heard his talks before, and he is good and knowledgeable concerning the Quran. His talks emphasis the relationship between Islam and the Baha'i Faith with an emphasis on the Quran.
                    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                    go with the flow the river knows . . .

                    Frank

                    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by siam View Post
                      How would you define "true" ?
                      The same way everyone else does. I suspect that what you're really asking is how I distinguish between true statements and false statements.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                        I have heard his talks before, and he is good and knowledgeable concerning the Quran. His talks emphasis the relationship between Islam and the Baha'i Faith with an emphasis on the Quran.
                        Angelika Neuwirth, Daniel Madigan and other scholars have done similar work--that is, bringing new insight of the Quran from a Non-Muslim perspective that respects the text. This is of benefit to us Muslims since we read the Quran from a particular perspective/framework. Engaging with the Quran in diversity of perspectives can enrich both Muslims and Non-Muslims.

                        In a previous thread I gave a link to an American artist who interpreted the Surahs of the Quran from his Modern American Experience...It too is an interesting perspective.
                        https://www.theatlantic.com/entertai...w-birk/413956/

                        IMO, this diversity is more important (at least in the Eastern context) as Wahabism is becoming more vocal and demanding that only their perspective of Islam is the correct one....Perhaps we Muslims need to reflect that wisdom does not have a copyright, but is a gift that belongs to all humanity....

                        Originally posted by siam View Post
                        1) How would you define "true" ?
                        2) what makes any "idea" (ideas are an abstraction) "true" ?
                        3) would you say "wisdom" (timeless truths) exist? (for ex---do unto others as you would have them do unto you....)
                        1) If we presume that the "real" is the "true" then there are 2 ways that we can perceive "true"--one is through our reason/intelligence---for example, we observe, then come to a conclusion, or we use other tools such as logic...another way is through the experience of "reality" (intuition/instinct). Higher degrees of spirituality are often associated with the experiential...
                        2) If we presume that "true" is in the context of correct (as opposed to incorrect/error), then an idea is true/correct (from the Islamic perspective) if it aligns with Tawheed (unity).
                        3) If we presume that there is a certain degree of consistency in human nature and human spirituality throughout time---then timeless wisdom/truths exists because its application will consistently produce benefit....

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by siam View Post
                          1) If we presume that the "real" is the "true" then there are 2 ways that we can perceive "true"--one is through our reason/intelligence---for example, we observe, then come to a conclusion, or we use other tools such as logic...another way is through the experience of "reality" (intuition/instinct). Higher degrees of spirituality are often associated with the experiential...
                          Could you explain what you mean by the second part? What do we know by instinct or intuition? I under intuition to be forming a conclusion from limited or obscure or disconnected evidence.
                          My Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by The Pixie View Post
                            1) If we presume that the "real" is the "true" then there are 2 ways that we can perceive "true"--one is through our reason/intelligence---for example, we observe, then come to a conclusion, or we use other tools such as logic...another way is through the experience of "reality" (intuition/instinct). Higher degrees of spirituality are often associated with the experiential...

                            Could you explain what you mean by the second part? What do we know by instinct or intuition? I under intuition to be forming a conclusion from limited or obscure or disconnected evidence.
                            According to some Muslim philosophers, God is the "Reality" upon which all other (perceptions) of reality are dependent upon. (God is independent). So what is "real" is "known" through our senses such as hearing, sight...etc and processed into coherence by our mind/intelligence. This mind/intelligence has 2 ways of accessing "knowledge", one is acquired knowledge (reason, logic...etc) and the other is innate knowledge (instinct/intuition). The Sufi mystics have a method/path (Tariqa) to strengthen this type of "knowing" (...and pretty much all Eastern mystics also have their own methods). According to the Muslim concept of Fitra (human nature), knowledge of God/Divine is innate/intuitive in all human beings. So...science is one way to know the true/real but spirituality is also another way to know the true/real..... the physical and the metaphysical reality. One way is outward---to know "nature", the other way is inward, to know "self"---but both are ways to know God/Divine("Reality".)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by siam View Post
                              According to some Muslim philosophers, God is the "Reality" upon which all other (perceptions) of reality are dependent upon.
                              And, according to some atheist philosophers, that's nonsense. How would you suggest I decide which philosophers are more likely correct?

                              Comment

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