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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


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  • #16
    Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
    I didn't say I don't believe in a difference between right and wrong.


    All behaviors, right or wrong, have consequences. Among the consequences, in either case, is a diminution of options that were available before the action was taken and become unavailable afterward.
    Some choices we make cannot be undone. The hope of believing what is actually true is to want to make right choices. The new covenant has the promise of complete forgiveness (Jeremiah 31:34; Hebrews 8:12). Something no human institution can either give or promise. (2 Corinthians 5:17; John 10:28; Titus 1:2.)
    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

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    • #17
      Originally posted by seer View Post
      Strange that animals like us are not satisfied with our animal behavior.
      I see nothing strange about it. I used to think it strange, but that was back in the days when I believed we were created by God.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
        I see nothing strange about it. I used to think it strange, but that was back in the days when I believed we were created by God.
        That doesn't make sense. As a Christian you would have believed that there were universal moral truths (as revealed in the teachings and example of Christ) that you were not living up to. But now, we are just animals doing what animals do - so you are actually dissatisfied with your natural state. Hence you seek some arbitrary ideal of perfection. That is strange...
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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        • #19
          Originally posted by seer View Post
          That doesn't make sense.
          You disagree with it, so of course it makes no sense -- to you.

          Originally posted by seer View Post
          As a Christian you would have believed that there were universal moral truths (as revealed in the teachings and example of Christ) that you were not living up to.
          Close enough. I would have said they were revealed in the Bible.

          Originally posted by seer View Post
          But now, we are just animals doing what animals do
          That's not the whole of it. We also do a few things that no other animals do, because we have brains very different from the brains of any other animal.

          Originally posted by seer View Post
          so you are actually dissatisfied with your natural state. Hence you seek some arbitrary ideal of perfection. That is strange...
          Whether it is strange or not, it is not my thinking. You are saying that I think "A, therefore B," but I do not believe that B follows from A.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
            Close enough. I would have said they were revealed in the Bible.
            Right, so you would have believed that there were universal moral truths that you were not living up to.


            That's not the whole of it. We also do a few things that no other animals do, because we have brains very different from the brains of any other animal.
            Are you suggesting that we are not animals?

            Whether it is strange or not, it is not my thinking. You are saying that I think "A, therefore B," but I do not believe that B follows from A.
            Well I don't understand your reasoning. You invent moral ideals that you don't live up to, then are dissatisfied for not living up to them?
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by seer View Post
              Are you suggesting that we are not animals?
              No. I am suggesting that just knowing we are animals does not tell us everything we need to know about ourselves.

              Comment


              • #22
                It should be noted we humans as animals are the only known rational animals we ourselves know of. It is this rational aspect of us as human animals which makes us in "the image of God."
                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                  It is this rational aspect of us as human animals which makes us in "the image of God."
                  Yes, if there is a God. If there's not, then our rationality is just a characteristic that distinguishes us from other animals.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
                    Yes, if there is a God. If there's not, then our rationality is just a characteristic that distinguishes us from other animals.
                    Where does rationality come from? Is the universe irrational or rational in its origin?
                    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                      Is the universe irrational or rational in its origin?
                      Neither. Rationality is a property of thought, not of inanimate entities such as the universe.

                      Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                      Where does rationality come from?
                      It is an emergent property of certain computational systems.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
                        Neither. Rationality is a property of thought, not of inanimate entities such as the universe.
                        The laws that governs our universe are rational in that they can be deduced from the evidences of our universe and understood by us as rational beings to make science for us possible.

                        It is an emergent property of certain computational systems.
                        Which characteristically exist in our universe.
                        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by 37818
                          Is the universe irrational or rational in its origin?

                          Originally posted by Doug Shaver
                          Neither. Rationality is a property of thought, not of inanimate entities such as the universe.
                          Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                          The laws that governs our universe are rational in that they can be deduced from the evidences of our universe and understood by us as rational beings to make science for us possible.
                          What that entails is that it is rational to believe that the universe is governed by laws. It does not entail that the universe is itself rational.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                            Where does rationality come from? Is the universe irrational or rational in its origin?
                            Interesting question....

                            Perhaps the universe is neither rational nor irrational? If we presume that rationality is a necessity of free-will, then, degrees of rationality will exist in "life" that has corresponding degrees of free-will? If so, then human beings have greater degrees of rationality because we have a greater degree of free-will? Therefore, objects with no free-will will not posses rationality but can still function in ways that human intellect perceives as "rational" because we understand "laws of nature" (or God).....?...

                            If we accept the above presumption, that degrees of "rationality" is a necessity of degrees of free-will, then "desire" (hunger, sleep, anger...etc) are also a necessity of survival of "life". The balance between these 2 aspects creates the "moral codes" therefore, the difference between the moral codes of animals and that of humans is that of the balance between these 2 aspects? (Intellect and Instinct). "Civilized" morality is one that weighs towards rationality rather than towards desire---for example, when an unfair injury occurs--there is anger, which can be resolved in 2 ways---the way of desire/instinct is vengeance (uncivilized/animal) the way of the intellect/rationality is the application of justice (civilized/human). but even in the application of justice there are degrees of humane-ness, punitive justice which seeks punishment or restorative justice which seeks reconciliation. The intellect/rational alone is not enough---the desire/instinct for compassion and mercy is necessary for free-will to be "humane"....?....This can be called "altruism" or "love of God".
                            Last edited by siam; 09-23-2017, 01:01 AM.

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