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What Was Jesus Teaching His Disciples?

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  • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    I'm still at a loss between how the inability to read translates needing to teach the disciples how to speak Greek.
    P1) If , then I win.

    P2)

    C) I win.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Diogenes View Post

      I'm still at a loss between how the inability to read translates needing to teach the disciples how to speak Greek.
      The ability to read and write Greek would be a necessary skill for disciples. The ability to merely speak it would be of little use in documenting the precepts of the new theology and instructing the churches they managed.

      Here’s what I said:

      For example, the disciples were illiterate, so they needed to learn Koine Greek to have discourse with the citizens of Jerusalem. It’s a massive assumption, but it seems reasonable given their charter.


      What was their charter?

      And, to clarify, the first sentence is a reference to rogue’s thread on Jesus’ facility in speaking Greek. tabibito and I once had a discussion about this, and I believe he argued Jesus might have taught the disciples Greek. I concede the combo of their two arguments.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by whag View Post

        The ability to read and write Greek would be a necessary skill for disciples. The ability to merely speak it would be of little use in documenting the precepts of the new theology and instructing the churches they managed.
        Only 4 of them wrote any of the canonical works so they all didn't need to be literate. You would only need few more in each community to read the writings. Even today most Christians are ignorant to the theological minutiae.

        P1) If , then I win.

        P2)

        C) I win.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Diogenes View Post

          Only 4 of them wrote any of the canonical works so they all didn't need to be literate. You would only need few more in each community to read the writings. Even today most Christians are ignorant to the theological minutiae.
          No, they were tasked with planting and managing churches and passing along their skill sets to communicate the tenets of their new religion. If you’re suggesting Acts 14 is to be taken literally, you’ll have to take that up with tabby who’s argued they were schooled in reading and writing.

          When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus.


          I’m conceding that they were literate, and that their literacy would be essential to their charter.

          Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
          Even today most Christians are ignorant to the theological minutiae.
          I’m not sure what point you’re making here. What “theological minutiae”?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by whag View Post

            No, they were tasked with planting and managing churches and passing along their skill sets to communicate the tenets of their new religion.
            None of that requires the ability to read or write. Also, there were these people who wrote words for other people.

            If you’re suggesting Acts 14 is to be taken literally, you’ll have to take that up with tabby who’s argued they were schooled in reading and writing.

            When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus.
            "Unschooled"

            STRONGS G62:
            ἀγράμματος, -ον, [γράμμα], illiterate, without learning: Acts 4:13 (i. e. unversed in the learning of the Jewish schools; cf. John 7:15 γράμματα μὴ μεμαθηκώς).


            Seeing as the commentary is by the high priest, the connotation is that they weren't religiously educated. It would be like a regular person talking to a seminarian.

            As for "ordinary":

            STRONGS G2399:
            ἰδιώτης, -ου, ὁ, (ἴδιος), very common in Greek writings from Herodotus down; properly, a private person, opposed to a magistrate, ruler, king; but the noun has many other meanings also, each one of which is understood from its antithesis, as e. g. a common soldier, as opposed to a military officer; a writer of prose, as opposed to a poet. In the N. T. an unlearned, illiterate, man, opposed to the learned, the educated: Acts 4:13; as often in classical Greek, unskilled in any art: in eloquence (Isocrates, p. 43 a.), with the dative of respect, τῷ λόγῳ, 2 Corinthians 11:6 [A. V. rude in speech]; a Christian who is not a prophet, 1 Corinthians 14:24; destitute of the 'gift of tongues,' 1 Corinthians 14:16, 23. [Cf. Trench lxxix.]


            Both entries from Thayer's Lexicon.


            P1) If , then I win.

            P2)

            C) I win.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Diogenes View Post

              None of that requires the ability to read or write. Also, there were these people who wrote words for other people.
              Exactly, they’d need to be able to read the scribe’s work so as to not propagate wrong information. John and Paul warned of spies and antichrists among them trying to authorize false information. They’d certainly need to read and write, just as Paul knew how to read and write.


              Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
              "Unschooled"

              STRONGS G62:
              ἀγράμματος, -ον, [γράμμα], illiterate, without learning: Acts 4:13 (i. e. unversed in the learning of the Jewish schools; cf. John 7:15 γράμματα μὴ μεμαθηκώς).


              Seeing as the commentary is by the high priest, the connotation is that they weren't religiously educated. It would be like a regular person talking to a seminarian.
              And this affects my point how? They were religiously educated by Jesus himself.

              Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
              As for "ordinary":

              STRONGS G2399:
              ἰδιώτης, -ου, ὁ, (ἴδιος), very common in Greek writings from Herodotus down; properly, a private person, opposed to a magistrate, ruler, king; but the noun has many other meanings also, each one of which is understood from its antithesis, as e. g. a common soldier, as opposed to a military officer; a writer of prose, as opposed to a poet. In the N. T. an unlearned, illiterate, man, opposed to the learned, the educated: Acts 4:13; as often in classical Greek, unskilled in any art: in eloquence (Isocrates, p. 43 a.), with the dative of respect, τῷ λόγῳ, 2 Corinthians 11:6 [A. V. rude in speech]; a Christian who is not a prophet, 1 Corinthians 14:24; destitute of the 'gift of tongues,' 1 Corinthians 14:16, 23. [Cf. Trench lxxix.]


              Both entries from Thayer's Lexicon.

              Thank you. I’m not sure what view is here. Can you do me the courtesy of telling me if you think the disciples were literate let or not? Then please explain their charter or what they were tasked to do other than street preaching.

              Comment


              • whag

                re: teachings of demons; prelimary results.
                There is a wealth of scripture pointing to human greed (in the broadest sense) as the source of factions or apostasy, and a few that point to the role of a "seared (cauterised?) or dulled conscience;" desire for monetary gain, prestige and what-all else being the primary drivers. To date it seems that only one relevant passage ( 1Tim 4:1-2 ) mentions "teachings of demons," which comes only after people have already deserted the faith. Occupation with demonic teachings is said to be a result of apostasy rather than a cause. A more detailed summary would take a while to collate.

                re: Paul's focus on his personally received revelation.
                The emphasis seems either primarily or exclusively the result of the need to demonstrate that he is no lesser an apostle than the founding apostles. His status as an apostle had been challenged by people who want to set themselves up in opposition to Paul and using the names of other apostles to underpin those attempts. Paul is responding to the challenges. He is also at pains to point out that his teachings are not in conflict with those of the founding apostles. In passing, he underscores the point that other apostles do not hold lesser offices than the founding apostles or himself.
                If this does not address your request for an assessment of "qualitative revelation," please restate the query.

                re: Authorship of Hebrews
                Hebrews is lacking for provenance, and arguments challenging the view that Paul was the author hold a bit more water than arguments against the traditionally nominated authors of other books. By way of contrast, arguments that Hebrews was written before the fall of the temple, most likely before 60CE, are firmly founded and not open to reasonable challenges. The Christology of Hebrews is thoroughly consistent with John, clearly laid out, and in greater detail. If authorship could be satisfactorily ascribed to Paul, it would give seppa to all argument that Paul's gospel was in any way deficient or in conflict with the teachings by the founding apostles.




                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                .
                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                Scripture before Tradition:
                but that won't prevent others from
                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                Comment


                • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                  whag

                  re: teachings of demons; prelimary results.
                  There is a wealth of scripture pointing to human greed (in the broadest sense) as the source of factions or apostasy, and a few that point to the role of a "seared (cauterised?) or dulled conscience;" desire for monetary gain, prestige and what-all else being the primary drivers. To date it seems that only one relevant passage ( 1Tim 4:1-2 ) mentions "teachings of demons," which comes only after people have already deserted the faith. Occupation with demonic teachings is said to be a result of apostasy rather than a cause. A more detailed summary would take a while to collate.
                  Apostasy and factionalism, greed and dead consciences—these are features of humanity. They exist in all world religions and smaller communities of belief.

                  That’s what I don’t understand. It’s too easy to attribute demonic forces to deadened conscience, but are you willing to go whole hog? Mainstream evangelical pastor Douglas Wilson’s wife bragged about spanking her 3 year-old daughter because she embarrassed her.



                  If the motivation of some of Paul’s detractors was exactly as described and not political exaggeration, I would contend their malevolence was rooted in their religious inculcation just as it is with that dead-eyed Christian couple.


                  Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                  whag
                  re: Paul's focus on his personally received revelation.
                  The emphasis seems either primarily or exclusively the result of the need to demonstrate that he is no lesser an apostle than the founding apostles. His status as an apostle had been challenged by people who want to set themselves up in opposition to Paul and using the names of other apostles to underpin those attempts. Paul is responding to the challenges. He is also at pains to point out that his teachings are not in conflict with those of the founding apostles. In passing, he underscores the point that other apostles do not hold lesser offices than the founding apostles or himself.

                  If this does not address your request for an assessment of "qualitative revelation," please restate the query.
                  It does and doesn’t. It clarifies your belief that Paul was at a disadvantage. It does not explain how pseudepigrapha and fan faction later slip the fathers’ notice.

                  Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                  re: Authorship of Hebrews
                  Hebrews is lacking for provenance, and arguments challenging the view that Paul was the author hold a bit more water than arguments against the traditionally nominated authors of other books. By way of contrast, arguments that Hebrews was written before the fall of the temple, most likely before 60CE, are firmly founded and not open to reasonable challenges. The Christology of Hebrews is thoroughly consistent with John, clearly laid out, and in greater detail. If authorship could be satisfactorily ascribed to Paul, it would give seppa to all argument that Paul's gospel was in any way deficient or in conflict with the teachings by the founding apostles.
                  What is seppa? I don’t know what this means.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by whag View Post

                    Apostasy and factionalism, greed and dead consciences—these are features of humanity. They exist in all world religions and smaller communities of belief.

                    That’s what I don’t understand. It’s too easy to attribute demonic forces to deadened conscience, but are you willing to go whole hog? Mainstream evangelical pastor Douglas Wilson’s wife bragged about spanking her 3 year-old daughter because she embarrassed her.


                    If the motivation of some of Paul’s detractors was exactly as described and not political exaggeration, I would contend their malevolence was rooted in their religious inculcation just as it is with that dead-eyed Christian couple.
                    That is one cringe-worthy video, and she's so proud of her action.

                    The reading of 1Tim has it that demonic teachings only come into play after the person is already compromised. There is little information provided about these "teachings of demons," but the author has declared that apostates become occupied with deceiving spirits and demonic teachings. A likely scenario would be that the teachings are those of other religions, and attempts at syncretism. (Pre)occupation with with deceiving spirits might include engaging in such things as astrology and spiritism.


                    It does and doesn’t. It clarifies your belief that Paul was at a disadvantage. It does not explain how pseudepigrapha and fan faction later slip the fathers’ notice.
                    It is an interesting problem. The author of Paul and Thecla got defrocked for his little foray into fan-fiction, even though he never presented the story as factual. As for those works which escaped their notice ... many of the fathers were sword and cudgel Christians. They were certainly very strong on stamping out publications that challenged their viewpoints, but those that didn't would pass unnoticed.

                    What is seppa? I don’t know what this means.
                    seppa = confutation, one step up from mere refutation.
                    Last edited by tabibito; 04-04-2024, 12:08 AM.
                    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                    .
                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                    Scripture before Tradition:
                    but that won't prevent others from
                    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                    of the right to call yourself Christian.

                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                      That is one cringe-worthy video, and she's so proud of her action.
                      Yes! She’s actually teaching the audience they should do that. And Doug is either in agreement with her abuse or silently uncomfortable with it. Both are terrifying.

                      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                      The reading of 1Tim has it that demonic teachings only come into play after the person is already compromised. There is little information provided about these "teachings of demons," but the author has declared that apostates become occupied with deceiving spirits and demonic teachings.
                      Nancy Wilson is doing the moral equivalent of what the antichrists did, was my point. There’s always been a type of believer who does evil things but isn’t an apostate, so dabbling with the occult wouldn’t make it much worse since there isn’t anything worse than child abuse. Spanking should be the taboo to her, not the occult.

                      And by “demonic teachings,” do you simply mean the paganism they were marinated in from birth?

                      Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                      It is an interesting problem. The author of Paul and Thecla got defrocked for his little foray into fan-fiction, even though he never presented the story as factual. As for those works which escaped their notice ... many of the fathers were sword and cudgel Christians. They were certainly very strong on stamping out publications that challenged their viewpoints, but those that didn't would pass unnoticed.
                      That’s where inerrantists begin to sweat. To what extent is this being guided?

                      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                      seppa = confutation, one step up from mere refutation.
                      Is this your view on the disputed epistles?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by whag View Post

                        You seem to regard the gospels as the entirety of Jesus’ interaction with the disciples. You’ll find zero support for this view—not even among fundamentalists. Most people understand that Jesus interacted with his disciples between those scenes. That interaction was to prepare them for their conversations with the lost.
                        So basically your entire argument is from silence? Got it.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                          So basically your entire argument is from silence? Got it.
                          No, your brother corrected you on that point:

                          https://theologyweb.com/campus/forum...79#post1572379

                          You don’t understand the gospels are scenes and not the entire record of the ministry. Jesus would be teaching them the theology he wanted preached between those scenes. He wouldn’t be rebuking Peter if Peter hadn’t been taught the plan.

                          Stop making me repeat myself. Engage more substantively like everyone else or move on.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by whag View Post

                            No, your brother corrected you on that point:

                            https://theologyweb.com/campus/forum...79#post1572379

                            You don’t understand the gospels are scenes and not the entire record of the ministry. Jesus would be teaching them the theology he wanted preached between those scenes. He wouldn’t be rebuking Peter if Peter hadn’t been taught the plan.

                            Stop making me repeat myself. Engage more substantively like everyone else or move on.
                            Sure the bible says that not everything Jesus said or did was recorded.

                            John 21:25 Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

                            But that doesn't give you license to just imagine what he did and then use that as an argument.

                            It is still an argument from silence.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                              Sure the bible says that not everything Jesus said or did was recorded.

                              John 21:25 Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.
                              That’s describing Jesus post-resurrection activities. I’ve made no claim that Jesus resumed his career as a religious teacher after he’d been raised from the dead.

                              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              But that doesn't give you license to just imagine what he did and then use that as an argument.

                              It is still an argument from silence.
                              You’re the only person in the world who has ever taken the position that Jesus wasn’t a teacher.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by whag View Post
                                Nancy Wilson is doing the moral equivalent of what the antichrists did, was my point. There’s always been a type of believer who does evil things but isn’t an apostate, so dabbling with the occult wouldn’t make it much worse since there isn’t anything worse than child abuse. Spanking should be the taboo to her, not the occult.
                                Yes - there are points where people are not acting in accord with Christ's teachings but are not apostate. A matter of understanding but not assimilating . People frequently think that they are tracking true, only to later find that they have had it completely wrong: Wilson might fall into that category. Apostate begins at the point where sound teaching has been consciously rejected, so too heretic.

                                And by “demonic teachings,” do you simply mean the paganism they were marinated in from birth?
                                To some extent, yes. The "teachings of demons" might point to teachings of "angel cults" such as those that developed in Colossae* during the mid first century. There was also a Russian sect at one time which claimed that to properly receive God's grace, it was necessary to first commit as many of the sins known to man as possible (Rasputin was reported to be incensed by the teaching).

                                * Pauline Period - also mouse over "17" in for additional detail.

                                That’s where inerrantists begin to sweat. To what extent is this being guided?
                                That question would be better directed to inerrantists. I find no scriptural support for the concept, and it leads to assertions which threaten to bring Christ's name into disrepute.

                                Is this your view on the disputed epistles?
                                My own evalution? The dispute arises from a failure to properly evaluate the data. John Isak, The 'Inauthentic Letters of Paul', provides an overview that seems reasonably well grounded.

                                Last edited by tabibito; 04-04-2024, 08:04 PM.
                                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                                .
                                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                                Scripture before Tradition:
                                but that won't prevent others from
                                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

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