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Biblical problems with Norman Geisler's argument for Old Earth Creationism

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    Except that it is not and cannot There is nothing in chapter one of Genesis to indicate that it is argumentative, contentious, or intended to provoke hostility. The interpretation by our mutual friend is entirely subjective and is not borne out by any textual evidence.
    No more wrong than the way you use "apologetic." Rogue's use of the term is at least within the broad parameters of the core meaning of polemic.
    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
    .
    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
    Scripture before Tradition:
    but that won't prevent others from
    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
    of the right to call yourself Christian.

    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by tabibito View Post

      No more wrong than the way you use "apologetic." Rogue's use of the term is at least within the broad parameters of the core meaning of polemic.
      The way our mutual friend has employed the word is totally incorrect as nothing in the text of Genesis chapter one indicates that its purpose is to be argumentative, provoke hostility, or be contentious.

      Your sycophantic endorsement for the erroneous usage of the term is duly noted.

      "It ain't necessarily so
      The things that you're liable
      To read in the Bible
      It ain't necessarily so
      ."

      Sportin' Life
      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by tabibito View Post


        Ah - it turns out that a rather obscure meaning of polemic, sans the "against," can be "a fervent or vehement contention." So ... your use of the term could be considered border-line correct, after all.
        I do have a bit of an affinity for obscure and obsolete terms and definitions.

        Essentially it is a "positive polemic." One that doesn't go on the direct attack but more from an oblique angle. Showing what they thought about God and noting how it isn't like other purported gods. Basically saying THIS is God -- not the things you think are.

        I'm always still in trouble again

        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by whag View Post

          It’s by far mostly Christians.
          Progress. Incremental steps, but still progress.

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
            I do have a bit of an affinity for obscure and obsolete terms and definitions.
            Hmm... rather like your contention that the phrase "I'm guessing" is a qualifer!

            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post

            Essentially it is a "positive polemic."
            Polemic may be used for positive effect but you have yet to provide textual evidence from chapter one of Genesis which gives an indication that it is any way a "polemic".

            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
            Showing what they thought about God and noting how it isn't like other purported gods. Basically saying THIS is God -- not the things you think are.
            On what evidence from the text?

            You might like to consider changing your moniker to Humpty Dumpty.

            When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’


            Although perhaps Carroll's later comment is really the most apposite for your good self.


            "It ain't necessarily so
            The things that you're liable
            To read in the Bible
            It ain't necessarily so
            ."

            Sportin' Life
            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
              But you have run across many who think that Lot's wife was literally transformed into a pillar of salt when that appears to have been an ancient Aramaic euphemism for having a stroke.
              All the translations didn’t get that memo:

              New International Version
              But Lot’s wife looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.

              New Living Translation
              But Lot’s wife looked back as she was following behind him, and she turned into a pillar of salt.

              English Standard Version
              But Lot’s wife, behind him, looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.

              Berean Standard Bible
              But Lot’s wife looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.

              King James Bible
              But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.

              New King James Version
              But his wife looked back behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.

              New American Standard Bible
              But Lot’s wife, from behind him, looked back,and she became a pillar of salt.

              NASB 1995
              But his wife, from behind him, looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.

              NASB 1977
              But his wife, from behind him, looked back; and she became a pillar of salt.

              Legacy Standard Bible
              Then his wife, from behind him, looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.

              Amplified Bible
              But Lot’s wife, from behind him, [foolishly, longingly] looked [back toward Sodom in an act of disobedience], and she became a pillar of salt.

              Christian Standard Bible
              But Lot’s wife looked back and became a pillar of salt.

              Holman Christian Standard Bible
              But his wife looked back and became a pillar of salt.

              American Standard Version
              But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.

              Aramaic Bible in Plain English
              And his wife turned from behind him and she became a pillar of salt.

              Brenton Septuagint Translation
              And his wife looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.

              Contemporary English Version
              On the way, Lot's wife looked back and was turned into a block of salt.

              Douay-Rheims Bible
              And his wife looking behind her, was turned into a statue of salt.

              English Revised Version
              But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.

              GOD'S WORD® Translation
              Lot's wife looked back and turned into a column of salt.

              Good News Translation
              But Lot's wife looked back and was turned into a pillar of salt.

              International Standard Version
              But Lot's wife looked back as she lingered behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.

              JPS Tanakh 1917
              But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.

              Literal Standard Version
              And his wife looks from behind him, and she becomes a pillar of salt!

              Majority Standard Bible
              But Lot’s wife looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.

              New American Bible
              But Lot’s wife looked back, and she was turned into a pillar of salt.

              NET Bible
              But Lot's wife looked back longingly and was turned into a pillar of salt.

              New Revised Standard Version
              But Lot’s wife, behind him, looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.

              New Heart English Bible
              But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.

              Webster's Bible Translation
              But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.

              World English Bible
              But Lot’s wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.

              Young's Literal Translation
              And his wife looketh expectingly from behind him, and she is -- a pillar of salt!


              The oral storytellers originally meant for their audience to imagine this. That’s why it’s written that way. That’s why America’s foremost conservative preacher says she turned into a pillar of salt.

              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
              The New Testament even provides an example of where a metaphor was being understood literally. When Jesus declared that "I am the bread of life" John records how this resulted in confusion among some Jews:

              Scripture Verse: John 6:52

              The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”

              © Copyright Original Source



              Obviously, Jesus wasn't saying he is a loaf of bread. And Jesus' reply

              Scripture Verse: John 6:53

              “Very truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you."

              © Copyright Original Source



              was used to base charges of cannibalism against early Christians.
              I’m not sure this helps your point. One can think of Jesus as the metaphorical sacrificial lamb and still believe Lot’s wife became salt. That’s still fixed and erroneous literalism that makes Christians look like uncultured yokels. Hyers would agree with me.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                A wholly unsupported declaration that really can't be supported given its wrongness.
                Would you mind telling me then of one person you know who believes “raining cats and dogs” means pets falling from the sky? I’ll wait for that or something equivalent.

                No, you know exactly what I’m talking about. People that believe in minimal metaphor like communion flesh and blood but ALSO believe God and Satan had a real wager about a historical character named Job.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                  Progress. Incremental steps, but still progress.
                  You’ve had millennia to change “turned into pillar of salt” to “died on the spot.”

                  After God rescued Lot’s family and sent judgment upon Sodom, Lot’s wife, longing to return to her sinful pattern of life was turned into a pillar of salt.

                  —John MacArthur


                  Maybe the oral tradition emphasizes the drama on purpose. If Lot’s wife simply died, I’m sure God would have guided the translators’ quills to say as much.

                  Have you ever considered the context of oral tradition?

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by whag View Post

                    You’ve had millennia to change “turned into pillar of salt” to “died on the spot.”

                    After God rescued Lot’s family and sent judgment upon Sodom, Lot’s wife, longing to return to her sinful pattern of life was turned into a pillar of salt.

                    —John MacArthur


                    Maybe the oral tradition emphasizes the drama on purpose. If Lot’s wife simply died, I’m sure God would have guided the translators’ quills to say as much.

                    Have you ever considered the context of oral tradition?
                    Being turned into a fixture of the local geography she looked back upon, likely sadden by leaving, is more befitting than mere death, especially as caution. She wanted to stay even as the place was being destroyed and that was granted.
                    Last edited by Diogenes; 02-18-2024, 05:37 AM.
                    P1) If , then I win.

                    P2)

                    C) I win.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Diogenes View Post

                      Being turned into a fixture of the local geography she looked back upon, likely sadden by leaving, is more befitting than mere death, especially as caution. She wanted to stay even as the place was being destroyed and that was granted.
                      rogue06 argued the phrase was an obvious Aramaic expression for a stroke. You’re saying that being transformed into sodium chloride is more befitting. Oookay.

                      It’s more likely it was neither. The foreshadowing inherent in the warning required completion to make the story more memorable:

                      17As soon as the men had brought them out, one of them said, “Run for your lives! Do not look back, and do not stop anywhere on the plain! Flee to the mountains, or you will be swept away!”

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                        With man being made in the image and likeness of God, an analogue of God ... would it not make sense to assume that God has something(s) analogous to organs and limbs?
                        I suppose it depends on the sense(s) in which humans are the "image and likeness" of God, perhaps reminiscent of the way there is debate about the ways and extent to which believers are "partakers of the divine nature."
                        Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                        Beige Federalist.

                        Nationalist Christian.

                        "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                        Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                        Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                        Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                        Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                        Justice for Matthew Perna!

                        Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post

                          I suppose it depends on the sense(s) in which humans are the "image and likeness" of God, perhaps reminiscent of the way there is debate about the ways and extent to which believers are "partakers of the divine nature."
                          Whatever the fine detail, image (LXX: eikoena) and likeness (omoioesin) indicates a fairly thorough analogue, where only one or the other would not.
                          The same deal applies in Philippians 2:7-8; being a man in morphei, omoioema, and scheima doesn't leave a whole lot of wriggle room. If only one of those words were used, there would be plenty of wriggle room.
                          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                          .
                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                          Scripture before Tradition:
                          but that won't prevent others from
                          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                          of the right to call yourself Christian.

                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by whag View Post

                            rogue06 argued the phrase was an obvious Aramaic expression for a stroke. You’re saying that being transformed into sodium chloride is more befitting. Oookay.

                            It’s more likely it was neither. The foreshadowing inherent in the warning required completion to make the story more memorable:

                            17As soon as the men had brought them out, one of them said, “Run for your lives! Do not look back, and do not stop anywhere on the plain! Flee to the mountains, or you will be swept away!”
                            It is possible that real pillars of Salt rich soil around the Dead Sea may have been the source of the Biblical myth:

                            Source: [B

                            https://dannythedigger.com/lots-wife...Bab%20Edh%2DDh ra[/B]]

                            Geologist Dr. Amos Frumkin suggests that a collapse of a cave some 4000 years ago from a mass scale earthquake caused the pillar. In the book of Genesis a pillar of salt is associated with God's destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. Some. suggest locating these sites on the opposite side of the Dead Sea, at Bab Edh-Dhra.

                            © Copyright Original Source




                            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                            go with the flow the river knows . . .

                            Frank

                            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post

                              I suppose it depends on the sense(s) in which humans are the "image and likeness" of God, perhaps reminiscent of the way there is debate about the ways and extent to which believers are "partakers of the divine nature."
                              Image and likeness are pretty specific. They imagined a male character with a face, hands, and feet.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                                It is possible that real pillars of Salt rich soil around the Dead Sea may have been the source of the Biblical myth:

                                Source: [B

                                https://dannythedigger.com/lots-wife...Bab%20Edh%2DDh ra[/B]]

                                Geologist Dr. Amos Frumkin suggests that a collapse of a cave some 4000 years ago from a mass scale earthquake caused the pillar. In the book of Genesis a pillar of salt is associated with God's destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. Some. suggest locating these sites on the opposite side of the Dead Sea, at Bab Edh-Dhra.

                                © Copyright Original Source



                                No doubt the storytellers meant for the audience to take this literally.

                                Comment

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