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Enoch, Fan Fiction, and Influence

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

    He has a fixation that 25 December as a date for celebration was adopted by non Christians from Christians.

    He seems entirely unaware of the history of the Saturnalia not to mention numerous other mid-winter festivals/cults from the ancient world and even older societies. Perhaps he thinks Newgrange was built a Christian church!
    Until Julius Caesar, in his duties as Pontifex Maximus, changed the calendar, Saturnalia was the 15th December. With the addition of two days to December, the date became a matter of debate - was it to be the fifteenth or (a fortnight before the last day of December) the seventeenth? Saturnalia soon became a three day festival; 15th -17th. Hard on the heels of that, it became a 7 day festival. The day of Saturnalia itself remained the 15th or 17th. The final date for the festival was (if the week of the festival is considered to start on the 17th) the 23rd. It seems that the more likely date for the start of the festival would have been the 15th. Either way, the 25th fell after the conclusion of the festival of Saturnalia.

    Then it has to be considered that with the number of gods available, it would have been difficult for a date to be fixed that wouldn't have been previously dedicated to one god or another.
    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
    .
    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
    Scripture before Tradition:
    but that won't prevent others from
    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
    of the right to call yourself Christian.

    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by tabibito View Post

      Until Julius Caesar, in his duties as Pontifex Maximus, changed the calendar, Saturnalia was the 15th December. With the addition of two days to December, the date became a matter of debate - was it to be the fifteenth or (a fortnight before the last day of December) the seventeenth? Saturnalia soon became a three day festival; 15th -17th. Hard on the heels of that, it became a 7 day festival. The day of Saturnalia itself remained the 15th or 17th. The final date for the festival was (if the week of the festival is considered to start on the 17th) the 23rd. It seems that the more likely date for the start of the festival would have been the 15th. Either way, the 25th fell after the conclusion of the festival of Saturnalia.

      Then it has to be considered that with the number of gods available, it would have been difficult for a date to be fixed that wouldn't have been previously dedicated to one god or another.
      And your point is?
      "It ain't necessarily so
      The things that you're liable
      To read in the Bible
      It ain't necessarily so
      ."

      Sportin' Life
      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

        And your point is?
        That it would be a rather careless act to set the date of Christmas to at least a week after the date of Saturnalia if the idea was to appropriate the date for Christian purposes, and not only more than a week after the actual day(s), but two or four days after their associated festival. The argument that Saturnalia was appropriated is kind of weak.
        As to Sol Invictus - not even a Roman god (Syrian) until well after the first recorded celebration of Christmas. The Gauls were celebrating the event on 25 December before 196 CE. It would be difficult to shoehorn an appropriation of Roman religious celebrations into Gaul's observances. There is mention of a Christmas celebration around 125CE (about 100 years before the first attempt to introduce Sol Invictus to Rome), but no date (day and month) for the celebration is stated.
        Last edited by tabibito; 02-08-2024, 06:44 AM.
        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
        .
        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
        Scripture before Tradition:
        but that won't prevent others from
        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
        of the right to call yourself Christian.

        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by tabibito View Post

          That it would be a rather careless act to set the date of Christmas to at least a week after the date of Saturnalia if the idea was to appropriate the date for Christian purposes, and not only more than a week after the actual day(s), but two or four days after their associated festival. The argument that Saturnalia was appropriated is kind of weak.

          As to Sol Invictus - not even a Roman god (Syrian) until well after the first recorded celebration of Christmas. The Gauls were celebrating the event on 25 December before 196 CE. It would be difficult to shoehorn an appropriation of Roman religious celebrations into Gaul's observances. There is mention of a Christmas celebration around 125CE (about 100 years before the first attempt to introduce Sol Invictus to Rome), but no date (day and month) for the celebration is stated.
          You are welcome to take it up with Steven Hijmas, the only scholar I cited in my reply to rogue06 that is still alive.

          "It ain't necessarily so
          The things that you're liable
          To read in the Bible
          It ain't necessarily so
          ."

          Sportin' Life
          Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by whag View Post

            Arguing about where a date was borrowed from is boring. Better to concentrate on the fact that Christianity’s conception of demons and such was borrowed from pagans and religious fan fiction.
            Tell that to H_A.

            The fact is that Christians started using December 25th for Christmas well before the pagans adopted it for a holiday. It doesn't matter that the pagan celebrations are older than Christmas, what matters was who was using December 25th first -- IOW, who co-opted who.

            I'm sure you find it "boring" because things like that kind of derail the idea that it was the Christians who were appropriating everything. The fact is that, more often than not, the pagans started borrowing heavily from Christianity.

            And again, Christians got their ideas about such things from Jewish sources. Whether or not the Jews were influenced by pagans or developed their ideas independently is another issue, but the fact is the principle source for such things were Jewish sources.
            Last edited by rogue06; 02-08-2024, 09:00 AM.

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

              You are welcome to take it up with Steven Hijmas, the only scholar I cited in my reply to rogue06 that is still alive.
              Kind of indicates that the notion that Christians co-opted December 25 is going the way of the Dodo as it's last proponents die off.

              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                Kind of indicates that the notion that Christians co-opted December 25 is going the way of the Dodo as it's last proponents die off.
                The tongue of the wise adorns knowledge but the mouths of fools pour out folly.
                "It ain't necessarily so
                The things that you're liable
                To read in the Bible
                It ain't necessarily so
                ."

                Sportin' Life
                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                  The tongue of the wise adorns knowledge but the mouths of fools pour out folly.
                  Apparently someone called you a wiseass and you misunderstood it as a complement.

                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                    Apparently someone called you a wiseass and you misunderstood it as a complement.
                    The personal comments are in effect I see.
                    "It ain't necessarily so
                    The things that you're liable
                    To read in the Bible
                    It ain't necessarily so
                    ."

                    Sportin' Life
                    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      This area’s dead. Anyone wanna pick up on this thread? Some interesting comments have been made here, but then HA and rogue had to ruin it with their flirting.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                        Well, there is no doubting that the foundational teachings were ...
                        "adjusted"
                        ... to make Christianity palatable to the Roman ruling cliques, anyway.
                        The necessity of that is interesting. Have you read Peace Child?

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by whag View Post

                          The necessity of that is interesting.
                          Assessing it as a necessity is interesting. "Expedient" might be the more accurate term, or maybe "profitable" would be even more accurate. People who are "men of their time" don't make for good Christian role models.



                          Have you read Peace Child?
                          So far, it seems an interesting account.
                          Last edited by tabibito; 04-04-2024, 12:25 AM.
                          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                          .
                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                          Scripture before Tradition:
                          but that won't prevent others from
                          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                          of the right to call yourself Christian.

                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by whag View Post
                            This area’s dead. Anyone wanna pick up on this thread? Some interesting comments have been made here, but then HA and rogue had to ruin it with their flirting.
                            There is a very long article on Enoch in Vol 2 of the Anchor Bible Dictionary.

                            From the opening section:

                            The Enochic corpus claims to be a series of revelations which Enoch received in antiquity and transmitted to his son Methuselah for the benefit of the righteous who would live in the end times. Its major subject matter is twofold: the nature and implications of the created structure of the cosmos and the origin, nature, consequences, and final judgment of evil and sin. The figure of Enoch portrayed in the various strata of this collection is much more complex than the prototypical righteous person suggested in Genesis. He is variously seer, sage, scribe, priest (or at least mediator), and eschatological judge.

                            Three myths govern the exposition in 1 Enoch. The primary myth, rooted in Gen 5:21–24 and its Mesopotamian sources, is concerned with Enoch‘s journeys to the heavenly throne room and through the cosmos and the wisdom that was revealed to him during these excursions. Two other myths posit different scenarios for a primordial heavenly revolt that has had long-lasting evil consequences for the human race. In tension with these latter two myths, however, is the prevailing assumption that human beings are accountable for their conduct and for their positive or negative response to the revelations contained in this book.

                            "It ain't necessarily so
                            The things that you're liable
                            To read in the Bible
                            It ain't necessarily so
                            ."

                            Sportin' Life
                            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                              Assessing it as a necessity is interesting. "Expedient" might be the more accurate term, or maybe "profitable" would be even more accurate.
                              Constantine's primary concern was unity within the Christian community rather than excessive interest in the trinity. I wonder if unity trumps truth.

                              Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                              So far, it seems an interesting account.
                              He’s a good example of someone who put the adaptive work in. I’ve been meaning to follow up on the result of that mission in terms of generational adoption.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                                Purely as a matter of interest, what sources are you citing for the above?
                                A quick googling (tbf I didn't use google but watering down and genericising the trademark is fun) reveals a 2014 paper with the following abstract;

                                Hesiod's Theogony is normally read as a ‘hymn to Zeus’, praising the victory of the Greek Storm God over the previous generations of gods (Ouranos, Kronos, and the Titans). The backbone of the Theogonyis the so-called Succession Myth, widely accepted by scholars as an adaptation from the Near Eastern theme of the cosmic struggle between generations of gods, leading to the victory of the Storm God. The Mesopotamian Enuma Elish, the Hurro-Hittite Song of Kumarbi, and less explicitly the Ugaritic and Biblical texts all reflect versions of this type of divine conflict. Behind the neat pattern of the succession, however, Greek sources contain scattered references to stories where even the power of Zeus is occasionally threatened. Through these allusions, we can reconstruct an ‘alternative’ motif of divine instability in Greek mythology. This essay will show that Greek and Northwest Semitic mythologies in particular converge in this less canonical picture of divine kingship, especially if we look at the concerns surrounding Baal's ascension to power in the Ugaritic Baal Cycle and his seemingly fragile position as the new ‘king in heaven’. The mythological representation of the dynamics among the gods, in turn, correlates with different perceptions of kingship among societies in the eastern Mediterranean. These shared theological concerns exemplify a phenomenon latent in many aspects of Greek ‘orientalizing’ literature and art, namely, a more direct and intense contact with the Northwest Semites (Canaanites, later Phoenicians, and others) than is usually granted. This brief overview will remind us of some of the methodological problems that challenge the study of comparative religion and mythology.


                                I take it your library is deficient of "Burkert, W. (1992). The Orientalizing Revolution: Near Eastern Influence on Greek Culture in the Early Archaic Age. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press."
                                P1) If , then I win.

                                P2)

                                C) I win.

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