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Enoch, Fan Fiction, and Influence

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  • Enoch, Fan Fiction, and Influence

    The first mention of Enoch in the Bible. What’s that about? It’s a very weird passage and difficult to reconcile with death being a requirement of life. The authors of the Enoch books were so fascinated with the idea of a man who skipped death, they generated very influential fan fiction about him. Is anyone interested in the influence of apocryphal literature?

  • #2
    I believe apocryphal literature was popular in the centuries around the time of Jesus Christ, and the Book of Enoch found in the Dead Sea scrolls and elsewhere during this time. Eventhough it was not eventually considered as Canon it was considered important literature. More to follow. . .
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
      I believe apocryphal literature was popular in the centuries around the time of Jesus Christ, and the Book of Enoch found in the Dead Sea scrolls and elsewhere during this time. Eventhough it was not eventually considered as Canon it was considered important literature. More to follow. . .
      It was circulating at least a century before Jesus, which explains:

      Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.
      The elect shall possess light, joy and peace, and they shall inherit the earth.

      The Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the son.
      The principal part of the judgment was assigned to him, the Son of man.

      Woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation.
      Woe to you who are rich, for in your riches have you trusted; but from your riches you shall be removed.

      Woe unto that man through whom the Son of man is betrayed! It had been good for that man if he had not been born.
      Where will the habitation of sinners be….who have rejected the Lord of spirits. It would have been better for them, had they never been born.


      and

      It was also about these that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, “See, the Lord is coming with ten thousands of his holy ones, to execute judgment on all, and to convict everyone of all the deeds of ungodliness that they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”

      Behold, he comes with the myriads of his holy ones, to execute judgment on all, and to destroy all the wicked, and to convict all flesh for all the wicked deeds that they have done, and the proud and hard words that wicked sinners spoke against him.


      Enoch was repeatedly told then assembled during the intertestamental period. This goes a long way in explaining the angel/demon/devil mythology that seems to have appeared out of thin air by the time NT was written. Obviously, it evolved. It pulled from elements of Greek mythology, Zoroastrianism, and apocryphal literature over the centuries, so by the time Jesus was talking about Hell, demons, and angel armies, his audience wasn’t puzzled like they just walked into the middle of a movie. They were well familiar with the myths at that point.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by whag View Post

        It was circulating at least a century before Jesus, which explains:

        Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.
        The elect shall possess light, joy and peace, and they shall inherit the earth.

        The Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the son.
        The principal part of the judgment was assigned to him, the Son of man.

        Woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation.
        Woe to you who are rich, for in your riches have you trusted; but from your riches you shall be removed.

        Woe unto that man through whom the Son of man is betrayed! It had been good for that man if he had not been born.
        Where will the habitation of sinners be….who have rejected the Lord of spirits. It would have been better for them, had they never been born.


        and

        It was also about these that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, “See, the Lord is coming with ten thousands of his holy ones, to execute judgment on all, and to convict everyone of all the deeds of ungodliness that they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”

        Behold, he comes with the myriads of his holy ones, to execute judgment on all, and to destroy all the wicked, and to convict all flesh for all the wicked deeds that they have done, and the proud and hard words that wicked sinners spoke against him.


        Enoch was repeatedly told then assembled during the intertestamental period. This goes a long way in explaining the angel/demon/devil mythology that seems to have appeared out of thin air by the time NT was written. Obviously, it evolved. It pulled from elements of Greek mythology, Zoroastrianism, and apocryphal literature over the centuries, so by the time Jesus was talking about Hell, demons, and angel armies, his audience wasn’t puzzled like they just walked into the middle of a movie. They were well familiar with the myths at that point.
        Yeah, the book of Enoch was very influential, and not just on Christians; it's the second most copied book at Qumran. It wasn't until nascent rabbinic Judaism when apocryphal material was proscribed (so proscribed that the Jews were prohibited from writing anything religious down for centuries). The only reason we had any apocryphal literature (before the DSS were discovered) is because Christian monks copied it.

        The sectarians of Qumran were rigorously conservative; it is rather unlikely that they would have been borrowing from Greek mythology or Zoroastrianism. It has been argued since at least the time of Eusebius of Caesarea that the Greeks borrowed from the Hebrews, not the other way around. Greek religion is patterned after ANE exemplars, and uses a Semitic word for "altar" (bema).
        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
        sigpic
        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post




          The sectarians of Qumran were rigorously conservative; it is rather unlikely that they would have been borrowing from Greek mythology or Zoroastrianism. It has been argued since at least the time of Eusebius of Caesarea that the Greeks borrowed from the Hebrews, not the other way around. Greek religion is patterned after ANE exemplars, and uses a Semitic word for "altar" (bema).
          As our understanding of that time period improves we have found that a number of things we were told that Christians borrowed from pagan religions didn't appear in the pagan religions until the second century A.D. and later. That supports the notion that much if not most of any borrowing was in the opposite direction than was once assumed.

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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          • #6
            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
            As our understanding of that time period improves we have found that a number of things we were told that Christians borrowed from pagan religions didn't appear in the pagan religions until the second century A.D. and later. That supports the notion that much if not most of any borrowing was in the opposite direction than was once assumed.
            The Book of Enoch is older than Than the time of Jesus Christ.
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

              The Book of Enoch is older than Than the time of Jesus Christ.
              So is Zoroastrianism and Hellenistic mythology. Rogue seems to be arguing that the Christian conception of Satan, demons, and angel armies weren’t influenced by preceding cultures and mythologies.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                As our understanding of that time period improves we have found that a number of things we were told that Christians borrowed from pagan religions didn't appear in the pagan religions until the second century A.D. and later. That supports the notion that much if not most of any borrowing was in the opposite direction than was once assumed.
                Zoroastrianism antedates Christianity by 700 years. The concepts of an underworld, celestial battles, and malevolent spirits antedate Christianity by even longer.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by whag View Post

                  So is Zoroastrianism and Hellenistic mythology. Rogue seems to be arguing that the Christian conception of Satan, demons, and angel armies weren’t influenced by preceding cultures and mythologies.
                  I believe they are.
                  Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                  Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                  But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                  go with the flow the river knows . . .

                  Frank

                  I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                    Yeah, the book of Enoch was very influential, and not just on Christians; it's the second most copied book at Qumran. It wasn't until nascent rabbinic Judaism when apocryphal material was proscribed (so proscribed that the Jews were prohibited from writing anything religious down for centuries). The only reason we had any apocryphal literature (before the DSS were discovered) is because Christian monks copied it.
                    Yea, that’s what I just said. Christians believed this and it influenced their perception of the underworld and spirit world.

                    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                    The sectarians of Qumran were rigorously conservative; it is rather unlikely that they would have been borrowing from Greek mythology or Zoroastrianism. It has been argued since at least the time of Eusebius of Caesarea that the Greeks borrowed from the Hebrews, not the other way around. Greek religion is patterned after ANE exemplars, and uses a Semitic word for "altar" (bema).
                    They didn’t borrow like John Lennon borrowed from Little Richard. In many cases, these beliefs were acquired through osmosis rather than deliberate taking.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by whag View Post
                      The concepts of an underworld, celestial battles, and malevolent spirits antedate Christianity by even longer.
                      Quite. They are rather older than Greek mythology, too. Greek mythology is similar to the Ba'al cycle, which existed alongside Israel. In other words, all this had Hebrew antecedents; there's no need to posit borrowing from younger cultures.
                      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                      sigpic
                      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                        Quite. They are rather older than Greek mythology, too. Greek mythology is similar to the Ba'al cycle, which existed alongside Israel. In other words, all this had Hebrew antecedents; there's no need to posit borrowing from younger cultures.
                        Well if the bible is true (and I believe it is) then in the beginning, Mankind knew all about God and Hell and Heaven and Satan and all that. As humanity spread out, that knowledge got passed along but corrupted into various other faiths and beliefs, only existing in pure form through the line of Abraham.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                          Well if the bible is true (and I believe it is) then in the beginning, Mankind knew all about God and Hell and Heaven and Satan and all that. As humanity spread out, that knowledge got passed along but corrupted into various other faiths and beliefs, only existing in pure form through the line of Abraham.
                          Animism > Polytheism > Monotheism

                          What you proposed is the traditional literal understanding of how it went. There is no evidence for what you proposed, so it’s a matter of faith not knowledge.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                            Quite. They are rather older than Greek mythology, too. Greek mythology is similar to the Ba'al cycle, which existed alongside Israel. In other words, all this had Hebrew antecedents; there's no need to posit borrowing from younger cultures.
                            It’s not a dichotomy where only one or the other is true. Cultural influence is undeniable while at the same time some of these beliefs could were occurring independently.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

                              I believe they are.
                              There’s something subversive sounding about the one true religion having borrowed key concepts and ideas, so some must reject the idea in favor of their bias.

                              Comment

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