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The Revelation of Jesus Christ

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  • The Revelation of Jesus Christ

    Originally posted by MehGerbil
    *deleted*
    Such attempts have been made many times before, yet the revelation of Jesus Christ continues to thrive.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Zxcv Bnm View Post
    Such attempts have been made many times before, yet the revelation of Jesus Christ continues to thrive.
    People continue to believe that such a revelation happened.

    Comment


    • #3
      Because the New Testament says so.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
        Because the New Testament says so.
        Why should I think the New Testament is more credible than any other book?

        Comment


        • #5
          Can you supply a list of other writings from the ancient world that are better attested than the New Testament?

          http://carm.org/manuscript-evidence

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
            Can you supply a list of other writings from the ancient world that are better attested than the New Testament?

            http://carm.org/manuscript-evidence
            Gilgamesh and other pre-Babylonian writings and stories, writings of Confucius (the School of Confucius where the writings were recorded and compiled has been documented to his life, and records to within 100 years of his death. The actual site still exists.), Spiritual writings of ancient Egypt (Original in tombs and tomb walls), and possibly some of the writings of Buddha. Only the Egyptian writings date well to the original date of authorship, ie Egyptian Books of the Dead writing at the time of the death of the Ruler.

            In the reference, I seriously question the number of copies reported to be less then 100 years, and the percentage of accuracy. By far only a few scrapes exist in this early time period, greater then 50-70 years after his life. . Most date to more then 250-300 years later then the life of Christ.

            Old Testament documents date only to the post exile period with the Dead Sea Scrolls, and two silver burial scrolls of this period. The Hebrew language does not date to much older then this period. The oldest scripture (ie parts of the Psalms) and stories of the OT are in cuniform pre-Babylonian tablets.

            The bottom line is that early or original dating of ancient writings does not necessarily correspond to the 'truth value' of said documents. As a witness to the fallibility of human authors memory and testimony trumps throughout history of written language.
            Last edited by shunyadragon; 05-25-2014, 08:16 AM.
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • #7
              Please supply a link with the dating of the documents you have cited above.

              So why then do you not accept the historical event of the resurrection as described in the New Testament?
              Last edited by foudroyant; 05-25-2014, 06:35 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                Please supply a link with the dating of the documents you have cited above.

                The existence and dating of the Egyptian writings, the tombs were full of them and all over the walls. Many sources, you pick. These texts are far older then anything known in the Bible and original to the time they were written.

                I may comment more on others.

                I may


                So why then do you not accept the historical event of the resurrection as described in the New Testament?
                I have not stated my beliefs, but the evidence of the actual known texts of the NT do not support the claim on CARM. All text scrapes date from after the rebellion and the destruction of the Temple. The Resurrection of Christ is a religious claim of traditional Christians based on the dogma and doctrine based on the NT text, Because of the history of the text the 'truth' of the Resurrection is not the only possible nor reasonable conclusion.
                Last edited by shunyadragon; 05-26-2014, 07:30 AM.
                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Doug Shaver
                  Why should I think the New Testament is more credible than any other book?
                  Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                  Can you supply a list of other writings from the ancient world that are better attested than the New Testament?
                  Your question does not answer my question, and I don't see how the answer to one is relevant to answering the other.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                    I have not stated my beliefs, but the evidence of the actual known texts of the NT do not support the claim on CARM. The Resurrection of Christ is a religious claim of traditional Christians based on the dogma and doctrine based on the NT text, Because of the history of the text the 'truth' of the Resurrection is not the only possible nor reasonable conclusion.
                    It is not only a religious claim but a historical one as well.

                    What other possible or reasonable conclusions are there that go against the resurrection of Christ?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                      [The resurrection] is not only a religious claim but a historical one as well.
                      Yes, in the sense that it is said to have occurred at a particular time and place in human history.

                      Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                      What other possible or reasonable conclusions are there that go against the resurrection of Christ?
                      Are you asking how a skeptic might possibly justify their belief that the resurrection did not actually occur?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
                        Are you asking how a skeptic might possibly justify their belief that the resurrection did not actually occur?

                        I am asking how the resurrection of Christ can be denied when the documents of the New Testament, which are historically accurate accounts of what took place, say that it did.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                          I am asking how the resurrection of Christ can be denied when the documents of the New Testament, which are historically accurate accounts of what took place, say that it did.
                          To begin with, NT documents are highly questionable as to historical accuracy of the period of the life of Christ especially concerning the miraculous events, in part because we have absolutely no references dating from the life of Christ that we can cross reference to even confirm the claims of the miraculous events supposedly many witnessed, nor existence of Christ. The NT documents are compilations set in history, and for the most part third person accounts of the events of Christ's life.

                          There are many ancient documents of religions set in history, recording historical events, but also reporting miraculous events, ie Buddhist and Hindu scripture.
                          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                          go with the flow the river knows . . .

                          Frank

                          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                            I am asking how the resurrection of Christ can be denied when the documents of the New Testament, which are historically accurate accounts of what took place, say that it did.
                            A work of fiction can be historically accurate. I'm going to assume you mean historically reliable.

                            You say they are historically reliable. That doesn't make them so. I can deny the resurrection by denying the New Testament's historical reliability.
                            Last edited by Doug Shaver; 05-26-2014, 10:09 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              In doing so then a lot of ancient history that we know about will be swept away as well.

                              Comment

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