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Pints with Aquinas

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  • Pints with Aquinas

    This isn’t about the Catholic podcast but alcohol and Christianity. (BTW, I’m a fan of the show if anyone wants to discuss a particular episode.)

    Alcohol is unquestionably a mind-altering drug is why I ask. I’m a bit of a lightweight, so I get a good buzz from two pints of moderately strong beer. Wine typically has twice the ABV of beer, so two glasses will do it for me. Is this drunk? No. Is it high? Yes. It’s high in the same way a puff of weed would get you high and feeling better about things.

    My Christian mother-in-law is so against alcohol that she’s convinced herself the wine of biblical times had less alcohol than today’s wine. Many pastors and Christian teachers preach this. The happy souls of the temperance movement probably spread this misinformation:
    IMG_1242.jpeg

    I told her this can’t be the case since Noah and Lot got hammered on wine, which means it packed a punch. Other than self-delusion, there no reason to assume people in the copper and bronze ages stopped fermenting their sugars before the ABV hit 5% (which is still a feel-good amount of alcohol, even in moderation).

    I do, however, understand why people like my mother-in-law struggle with the Bible effectively sanctioning the use of this specific drug, since it doesn’t sanction the moderate use of any other mind-altering substance.

    The Trappist monks seem to really enjoy their beer. I’d hang with them.

    Who here struggles with Christianity’s stance on alcohol?

  • #2
    It seems like this is going to be another thread of taking the Bible out of its context. In this care, the context would be in regard to wine being a means to drink water safely as opposed to drinking beer or stronger drink to the point of being drunk and that the proscription involves the later. ETA: it would also involve not wasting funds meant for taking care of the family on strong drink.
    Last edited by Diogenes; 11-03-2023, 06:04 PM.
    P1) If , then I win.

    P2)

    C) I win.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
      It seems like this is going to be another thread of taking the Bible out of its context. In this care, the context would be in regard to wine being a means to drink water safely as opposed to drinking beer or stronger drink to the point of being drunk and that the proscription involves the later. ETA: it would also involve not wasting funds meant for taking care of the family on strong drink.
      The wedding guests at Cana would disagree.

      This was meant to be a discussion with Christians who enjoy a good beer buzz occasionally, as well as those with strident views on communion wine. It wasn’t meant for overly defensive baby Christians such as yourself.

      I do not permit you to speak in this thread. You are to remain silent.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by whag View Post

        The wedding guests at Cana would disagree.

        This was meant to be a discussion with Christians who enjoy a good beer buzz occasionally, as well as those with strident views on communion wine. It wasn’t meant for overly defensive baby Christians such as yourself.
        Per the OP:

        Originally posted by whag View Post

        Who here struggles with Christianity’s stance on alcohol?

        I do not permit you to speak in this thread. You are to remain silent.
        I recognize that you are overly defensively changing the the nature of the thread and that I'm no longer allowed on the thread.
        Last edited by Diogenes; 11-03-2023, 06:34 PM.
        P1) If , then I win.

        P2)

        C) I win.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Diogenes View Post

          Per the OP:






          I recognize that you are overly defensively changing the the nature of the thread and that I'm no longer allowed on the thread.
          Away with you, man who lied about being a Christian for years.

          Comment


          • #6
            I struggle with evangelical/fundamentalist Christianity's stance on alcohol. I am somewhat fascinated how a position which started in the liberal/progressive wing of Protestant Christianity ended up becoming the standard of the other wing. Does that count?

            The Tanakh rather clearly indicates that drinking some alcohol is fine. It very clearly castigates drunkenness. The question is, what does the Tanakh say about the state of being drunk? It is typically described as falling-down, feeling no pain, blackout drunk.
            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
            sigpic
            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
              I struggle with evangelical/fundamentalist Christianity's stance on alcohol. I am somewhat fascinated how a position which started in the liberal/progressive wing of Protestant Christianity ended up becoming the standard of the other wing. Does that count?
              Absolutely! In fact, I didn’t know this intolerant position started in the liberal wing of Protestant Christianity. I would like to know more.

              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
              The Tanakh rather clearly indicates that drinking some alcohol is fine. It very clearly castigates drunkenness. The question is, what does the Tanakh say about the state of being drunk? It is typically described as falling-down, feeling no pain, blackout drunk.
              Yes, there’s a big difference between the happy wine buzz that Jesus seems to be referring to and blacked-out drunkenness. I’ve had the spins and vomited from too much drinking before, but I’ve never experienced anything close to a blackout.

              IMG_1243.jpeg

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                I struggle with evangelical/fundamentalist Christianity's stance on alcohol. I am somewhat fascinated how a position which started in the liberal/progressive wing of Protestant Christianity ended up becoming the standard of the other wing. Does that count?

                The Tanakh rather clearly indicates that drinking some alcohol is fine. It very clearly castigates drunkenness. The question is, what does the Tanakh say about the state of being drunk? It is typically described as falling-down, feeling no pain, blackout drunk.
                This interpretation seems to make the most sense of the wedding feast at Cana. I have long struggled with reconciling the biblical stance on drunkenness and the fact that, at face value, Jesus would have been providing more alcohol to people who had already had plenty.
                "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by whag View Post
                  This isn’t about the Catholic podcast but alcohol and Christianity. (BTW, I’m a fan of the show if anyone wants to discuss a particular episode.)

                  Alcohol is unquestionably a mind-altering drug is why I ask. I’m a bit of a lightweight, so I get a good buzz from two pints of moderately strong beer. Wine typically has twice the ABV of beer, so two glasses will do it for me. Is this drunk? No. Is it high? Yes. It’s high in the same way a puff of weed would get you high and feeling better about things.

                  My Christian mother-in-law is so against alcohol that she’s convinced herself the wine of biblical times had less alcohol than today’s wine.
                  Years back I read several older papers that argued that wine was likely stronger back then than now, but that stopped after analysis of residue in containers showed that wine back then was no stronger or weaker than wines today.

                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by whag View Post
                    This isn’t about the Catholic podcast but alcohol and Christianity. (BTW, I’m a fan of the show if anyone wants to discuss a particular episode.)

                    Alcohol is unquestionably a mind-altering drug is why I ask. I’m a bit of a lightweight, so I get a good buzz from two pints of moderately strong beer. Wine typically has twice the ABV of beer, so two glasses will do it for me. Is this drunk? No. Is it high? Yes. It’s high in the same way a puff of weed would get you high and feeling better about things.

                    My Christian mother-in-law is so against alcohol that she’s convinced herself the wine of biblical times had less alcohol than today’s wine. Many pastors and Christian teachers preach this. The happy souls of the temperance movement probably spread this misinformation:
                    Jesus, his friends and family (and most other Galilean Jews) drank lots of wine. It was the safest drink for them, just as we English drank beer and spirits.
                    And they drank a lot of it by gospel accounts; finishing up all the wine at a wedding feast in Cana and pressing Jesus to magic up some more.
                    And even the Baptist (in prison) heard worrying rumours about Jesus's drinking.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by whag View Post
                      This isn’t about the Catholic podcast but alcohol and Christianity. (BTW, I’m a fan of the show if anyone wants to discuss a particular episode.)

                      Alcohol is unquestionably a mind-altering drug is why I ask. I’m a bit of a lightweight, so I get a good buzz from two pints of moderately strong beer. Wine typically has twice the ABV of beer, so two glasses will do it for me. Is this drunk? No. Is it high? Yes. It’s high in the same way a puff of weed would get you high and feeling better about things.

                      My Christian mother-in-law is so against alcohol that she’s convinced herself the wine of biblical times had less alcohol than today’s wine. Many pastors and Christian teachers preach this. The happy souls of the temperance movement probably spread this misinformation:
                      IMG_1242.jpeg

                      I told her this can’t be the case since Noah and Lot got hammered on wine, which means it packed a punch. Other than self-delusion, there no reason to assume people in the copper and bronze ages stopped fermenting their sugars before the ABV hit 5% (which is still a feel-good amount of alcohol, even in moderation).

                      I do, however, understand why people like my mother-in-law struggle with the Bible effectively sanctioning the use of this specific drug, since it doesn’t sanction the moderate use of any other mind-altering substance.

                      The Trappist monks seem to really enjoy their beer. I’d hang with them.

                      Who here struggles with Christianity’s stance on alcohol?
                      Is that photograph a spoof?

                      The Temperance movement also had a social aspect and women and children often bore the brunt of male alcoholism; as Cruickshank, himself a firm advocate of abstention much to Dickens' irritation, shows in his famous series of drawings entitled The Bottle.



                      "It ain't necessarily so
                      The things that you're liable
                      To read in the Bible
                      It ain't necessarily so
                      ."

                      Sportin' Life
                      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by whag View Post
                        This isn’t about the Catholic podcast but alcohol and Christianity. (BTW, I’m a fan of the show if anyone wants to discuss a particular episode.)
                        I like Coffee with Jesus.

                        I'm always still in trouble again

                        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by whag View Post

                          Absolutely! In fact, I didn’t know this intolerant position started in the liberal wing of Protestant Christianity. I would like to know more.
                          The Puritans very much enjoyed their beer and cider, and produced plenty of rum (which was frowned upon as 'demon rum' in some quarters). The Temperance movement was one of the first social movements which are generally a hallmark of progressivism. Women (moreseo than men, IIRC) pushed for the banning of alcohol because of the deleterious effects of overindulging.
                          Yes, there’s a big difference between the happy wine buzz that Jesus seems to be referring to and blacked-out drunkenness. I’ve had the spins and vomited from too much drinking before, but I’ve never experienced anything close to a blackout.
                          I have blacked out twice, back in my Navy days. The first one was my 21st birthday, and more the fault of the shipmates who kept giving me booze. My stomach is pretty strong, so I only vomited that first time - after I'd blacked out.
                          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

                          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                          sigpic
                          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Interesting article on Purim. Of course not all Rabbis have advocated such total drunkenness as other articles on the topic indicate.

                            https://www.israeltoday.co.il/read/w...runk-on-purim/
                            On Purim, Jews are obligated to drink themselves into joyful oblivion. How strange when the Bible clearly teaches that “wine is a mocker and beer a brawler; whoever is led astray by them is not wise” (Proverbs 20:1).

                            And yet, the commandment to get drunk comes from the Shulchan Aruch, the most widely consulted and universally accepted Jewish code of law. As it is written, “A person is obligated to drink on Purim until he cannot differentiate between Cursed is Haman and Blessed is Mordechai.” That’s a lot of drinking.

                            What to make of this strange commandment? Jewish sages understood that throughout Megillat Esther, the Scroll of Esther, in almost every chapter we find someone – the Persian King Ahasuerus, Mordechai, Haman, Esther – enjoying a feast with plenty of drink. The entire story unfolds during these elaborate feasts for both friend and foe, and clearly the food and drink contribute to making sure everyone is pliable and mellow enough to accept the startling upheavals that changed history. Purim is also called the "Upside-Down Holiday" because everything gets turned around. The Megillah concludes with instructions for all Jewish people throughout their generation to celebrate Purim as yemei mishteh v’simchah, “Days of drinking and rejoicing” (Esther 9:22).

                            For this reason, the rabbis allow masquerading in costumes, merrymaking, gambling (like the good “fortune” in the Purim story) and drinking beyond the point of intoxication. The upside-down aspect of Purim is intended to provide relief from the burdens of everyday life. It provides a time for Jews to deviate from the norms, forget about their troubles momentarily, and have a good old time.

                            How should we understand the ruling to become so intoxicated that you cannot tell the difference between Haman and Mordechai? Perhaps the intention is to try and forget, for a day or two at least, all the evil in the world? The Purim commandment is to rejoice with pure joy, forget about Haman and his descendants. It reminds me of Jesus’ saying, “Don’t worry about tomorrow, there is enough trouble today.” Our need to always think rationally can prevent the simple, unbridled celebrations of joy that are so crucial for a healthy soul. Allowing uninhibited expressions of happiness and thankfulness that go beyond our minds are necessary to keep us sane in a chaotic world, and even prepare us for the challenges to come.

                            The rabbis have a lovely maxim that encourages us not only to rejoice during the days of Purim, but to start the celebrations at the beginning of the Purim month of Adar. Mashe neknas Adar, marbim b’simcha, “When Adar enters, joy increases.” The funny thing is (pun intended) that 2019 is a leap year in the Hebrew calendar, so the Purim month of Adar comes around twice this year. Double the fun, right? Well, things got so out of control that a group of rabbis had to make a ruling on Wednesday calling on the public not to over-drink on Purim. The rabbis write that “from experience, many times drinking leads to murder, such as in cases where a person drives after drinking. This is known to cause many tragedies.” The rabbis also quote doctors who say that excess drinking, especially among young people who are allowed to drink on Purim, causes damage to the body and brain. The letter ends with a call on the public “not to become drunk at family celebrations,” though I can’t imagine why anyone would need a drink at home with the typical large and loud Jewish family!

                            "It ain't necessarily so
                            The things that you're liable
                            To read in the Bible
                            It ain't necessarily so
                            ."

                            Sportin' Life
                            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                              The Puritans very much enjoyed their beer and cider, and produced plenty of rum (which was frowned upon as 'demon rum' in some quarters). The Temperance movement was one of the first social movements which are generally a hallmark of progressivism. Women (moreseo than men, IIRC) pushed for the banning of alcohol because of the deleterious effects of overindulging.
                              Women and children also often faced the consequences of fathers overindulging, resulting in money that should have been used for the family being spent on drink and which was often accompanied by domestic violence.

                              In his superb novel Bleak House Dickens' makes the connection between drinking gin and the conditions of the working poor when Mrs Pardiggle, who represents the religious type he so loathed, visits the brickmaker and his family. She castigates the brickmaker for his drunkenness and violence and the state in which his family lives. His reply includes this:

                              I’ll save you the trouble. Is my daughter a-washin? Yes, she is a-washin. Look at the water. Smell it! That’s wot we drinks. How do you like it, and what do you think of gin, instead!


                              In England in the 1800 and early 1900s at least three model villages built by philanthropic industrialists had no public houses. Bournville near Birmingham and New Earswick near York were both established by the Quaker and temperance chocolate manufacturers; the Cadbury and Rowntree families. Saltaire in West Yorkshire was another such model village built by the textile industrialist and Methodist, Titus Salt, for his workers.



                              "It ain't necessarily so
                              The things that you're liable
                              To read in the Bible
                              It ain't necessarily so
                              ."

                              Sportin' Life
                              Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                              Comment

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