Announcement

Collapse

Apologetics 301 Guidelines

If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you


This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

continued - Biblical Infanticide

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • continued - Biblical Infanticide

    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    And?

    Why are you mentioning sagas and foundation myths as if these are attested history?
    Why do you keep buying pyrite thinking it is gold?

    You referred to the Bronze age period of this tell . The "time of the Judges and later" is fhe eleventh century BCE and later, not the Bronze age
    Rough ball park figures would have your timing a few centuries too late. Not that you can be expected to read this without animus, if at all, but I provide the link anyway.

    Yes. Odd isn't it? That great king Solomon with all his wealth lands does not get a single mention.
    In which of the few* documents (that have survived until now) would mention of Solomon or David logically be expected? That is to say, in which documents would mention of David or Solomon be on topic?

    * few being a relative term. Many by actual count, but only a small percentage of the total that once existed.

    Moderated By: rogue06

    This is a continuation from https://theologyweb.com/campus/forum...e4#post1534786

    ***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
    Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publicly complain or whine, please take it to the Padded Room unless told otherwise.

    Last edited by rogue06; 11-02-2023, 01:02 PM.
    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
    .
    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
    Scripture before Tradition:
    but that won't prevent others from
    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
    of the right to call yourself Christian.

    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

  • #2
    [rogue06=quote]And I'll note that our understanding of the culture back then has advanced by quite a bit since the 17th century.[/quote]


    In what way that'd be enough to interpret this part so differently? We're talking about Noah's son, so this very likely didn't even happen.

    [rogue06=quote]If you prefer, here's a piece from Biblical Archaeology by Solomon Landers: Did Jephthah Kill His Daughter?[/quote]


    He's offering the same unconvincing minority argument.

    Interestingly, he ends with the principle reason he objects to the common interpretation--Jephthah's inclusion in the Hebrews Hall of Fame:


    In the New Testament, Jephthah is also mentioned only once, in Hebrews 11:32. There he is also in the company of honorable men: Gideon, Barak, Samson, David, Samuel and others celebrated both for valiant deeds and sterling faith, of whom the text declares that they “through faith conquered kingdoms, enforced justice, received promises, stopped the mouths of lions, quenched raging fire, escaped the edge of the sword, won strength out of weakness, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight” (Hebrews 11:33–34).

    Could such a superlative assessment be made of Jephthah if he were a murderer, a man of abominations, an Israelite version of the pagan Moabite king Mesha? I think not I think both references to Jephthah, in Samuel and in Hebrews, indicate that the authors of these books agree with me that Jephthah did not, in fact, sacrifice his daughter, but instead consigned her to an isolated life as a virgin.


    The whole point of the HHoF was that God saw no distinction between righteous Enoch and murdering, fornicating David.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by rogue06
      JP is hardly the only person holding that view, it's just convenient to cite him given he has a few things regarding it. And I'll note that our understanding of the culture back then has advanced by quite a bit since the 17th century.

      If you prefer, here's a piece from Biblical Archaeology by Solomon Landers: Did Jephthah Kill His Daughter?
      That Jepthtah is spoken of honorably elsewhere in scripture would seem to be the surest indication that he did not do something which God declared was a detestable act.
      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
      Than a fool in the eyes of God


      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by whag
        The whole point of the HHoF was that God saw no distinction between righteous Enoch and murdering, fornicating David.
        David repented. Jepththah's narrative does not record a similar redemptive arc, yet he is regarded as righteous elsewhere in scripture, which would suggest that he never carried through with actually sacrificing his daughter.
        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
        Than a fool in the eyes of God


        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

        Comment


        • #5
          different Jephthah unless you think he lived longer than Methuselah

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • #6
            [rogue06=quote]different Jephthah unless you think he lived longer than Methuselah[/quote]

            Oh right….

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

              That Jepthtah is spoken of honorably elsewhere in scripture would seem to be the surest indication that he did not do something which God declared was a detestable act.
              He is described as an outlaw and a bandit.

              Then Jephthah fled from his brothers and lived in the land of Tob. Outlaws gathered around Jephthah and went raiding with him.
              "It ain't necessarily so
              The things that you're liable
              To read in the Bible
              It ain't necessarily so
              ."

              Sportin' Life
              Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                David repented. Jepththah's narrative does not record a similar redemptive arc, yet he is regarded as righteous elsewhere in scripture, which would suggest that he never carried through with actually sacrificing his daughter.
                Consider that list isn’t exhaustive and contains some strange inclusions. Other individuals with rather sketchy track records are also included in the hall of faith. Abraham gave his wife away and literally birthed Israel’s greatest enemy. Righteous Noah got blind drunk and pronounced a curse on all of Ham’s descendants. Gideon, Barak, and Samson—terrible people whose repentance isn’t recorded. Jephthah could have repented without being recorded.

                The plain reading makes more sense: Jephthah made a vow to kill the animal that emerged from the house. That vow couldn’t have meant the animal would be consigned to service to the Lord and perpetual virginity. (The animal wouldn’t likely be a virgin, besides.)

                38 “You may go,” he said. And he let her go for two months. She and her friends went into the hills and wept because she would never marry. 39 After the two months, she returned to her father, and he did to her as he had vowed. And she was a virgin.


                The vow was clearly to kill the animal that emerged from the house to greet him.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by whag View Post

                  Consider that list isn’t exhaustive and contains some strange inclusions. Other individuals with rather sketchy track records are also included in the hall of faith. Abraham gave his wife away and literally birthed Israel’s greatest enemy. Righteous Noah got blind drunk and pronounced a curse on all of Ham’s descendants. Gideon, Barak, and Samson—terrible people whose repentance isn’t recorded. Jephthah could have repented without being recorded.

                  The plain reading makes more sense: Jephthah made a vow to kill the animal that emerged from the house. That vow couldn’t have meant the animal would be consigned to service to the Lord and perpetual virginity. (The animal wouldn’t likely be a virgin, besides.)

                  38 “You may go,” he said. And he let her go for two months. She and her friends went into the hills and wept because she would never marry. 39 After the two months, she returned to her father, and he did to her as he had vowed. And she was a virgin.


                  The vow was clearly to kill the animal that emerged from the house to greet him.
                  The issue is that humans are not suitable for sacrifice, and such an act is expressly forbidden. This would suggest that another type of sacrifice came into play.

                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                    The issue is that humans are not suitable for sacrifice, and such an act is expressly forbidden. This would suggest that another type of sacrifice came into play.
                    That doesn’t make a difference since polygamy was also expressly forbidden. Multiple women aren’t suitable for being a king’s collective wife. The plain reading makes the most sense.

                    It’s undeniable this passage likely doesn’t describe an actual event but is merely an embellished story. Consider this hallmark:

                    whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the Lord’s, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering.


                    Obviously, the bolded part of the chapter is storytelling convenience since pets didn’t exist and agrarian animals wouldn’t be coming out to meet anyone. It’s little different than what screenwriters do to move the plot along.

                    Judges is more myth than history, having been crafted over the centuries through oral tradition.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by whag View Post

                      Consider that list isn’t exhaustive and contains some strange inclusions. Other individuals with rather sketchy track records are also included in the hall of faith. Abraham gave his wife away and literally birthed Israel’s greatest enemy. Righteous Noah got blind drunk and pronounced a curse on all of Ham’s descendants. Gideon, Barak, and Samson—terrible people whose repentance isn’t recorded. Jephthah could have repented without being recorded.

                      The plain reading makes more sense: Jephthah made a vow to kill the animal that emerged from the house. That vow couldn’t have meant the animal would be consigned to service to the Lord and perpetual virginity. (The animal wouldn’t likely be a virgin, besides.)

                      38 “You may go,” he said. And he let her go for two months. She and her friends went into the hills and wept because she would never marry. 39 After the two months, she returned to her father, and he did to her as he had vowed. And she was a virgin.


                      The vow was clearly to kill the animal that emerged from the house to greet him.
                      If the animal in question had not been fit for sacrifice, it would not have been sacrificed: it would necessarily have been substituted. A proscribed sacrifice would not have been permitted: it would have been an insult. Even if Jephthah was ignorant of the rules, his neighbours would not have been.
                      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                      .
                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                      Scripture before Tradition:
                      but that won't prevent others from
                      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                      of the right to call yourself Christian.

                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                        He is described as an outlaw and a bandit.

                        Then Jephthah fled from his brothers and lived in the land of Tob. Outlaws gathered around Jephthah and went raiding with him.
                        Of course that is before the nation of Israel called him back and restored him to a place of honor leading their army.
                        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                        Than a fool in the eyes of God


                        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                          If the animal in question had not been fit for sacrifice, it would not have been sacrificed: it would necessarily have been substituted.
                          Ah, in that case, an animal would easily be substituted for unfit Jephthah’s daughter. She’d remain freely eligible for marriage.

                          In that case, there’d be no story worth telling.

                          Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                          A proscribed sacrifice would not have been permitted: it would have been an insult.
                          Exactly! According to your argument, the woman would have been immediately determined unfit for sacrifice of any kind. She would necessarily have been substituted with a proper sacrificial animal.

                          Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                          Even if Jephthah was ignorant of the rules, his neighbours would not have been.
                          You're ascribing way too much historicity and realism to this obviously fictional story. The point of the story is to make a shocking point, and the best way to get there is through plot contrivance.

                          There’s nothing shocking or even memorable about sending one’s daughter to the nunnery. Jephthah had an assortment of concubines to continue his family line.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by whag View Post

                            Consider that list isn’t exhaustive and contains some strange inclusions. Other individuals with rather sketchy track records are also included in the hall of faith. Abraham gave his wife away and literally birthed Israel’s greatest enemy. Righteous Noah got blind drunk and pronounced a curse on all of Ham’s descendants. Gideon, Barak, and Samson—terrible people whose repentance isn’t recorded. Jephthah could have repented without being recorded.

                            The plain reading makes more sense: Jephthah made a vow to kill the animal that emerged from the house. That vow couldn’t have meant the animal would be consigned to service to the Lord and perpetual virginity. (The animal wouldn’t likely be a virgin, besides.)

                            38 “You may go,” he said. And he let her go for two months. She and her friends went into the hills and wept because she would never marry. 39 After the two months, she returned to her father, and he did to her as he had vowed. And she was a virgin.


                            The vow was clearly to kill the animal that emerged from the house to greet him.
                            If a plain reading is correct, then it is highly curious that the scriptures seem to make nothing of it. Jephthah is never punished or challenged to repent, and later is named as an example for others to follow. That is inexplicable if he really did such a wicked thing.
                            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                            Than a fool in the eyes of God


                            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                              The issue is that humans are not suitable for sacrifice, and such an act is expressly forbidden. This would suggest that another type of sacrifice came into play.
                              That is all post-exilic when various texts were redacted, and some were even written, the Book of Daniel being one such later text..

                              Like their neighbours at moments of extreme stress and/or crisis the early Israelites practised human sacrifice. It is notable that in 2 Kings chapter three the actions of King Moab are neither condemned nor punished, on the contrary his actions are successful and it is Israel that is turned back and which experiences "great wrath", not the Moabites.
                              "It ain't necessarily so
                              The things that you're liable
                              To read in the Bible
                              It ain't necessarily so
                              ."

                              Sportin' Life
                              Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                              Comment

                              Related Threads

                              Collapse

                              Topics Statistics Last Post
                              Started by shunyadragon, 02-15-2024, 12:52 PM
                              74 responses
                              313 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post whag
                              by whag
                               
                              Started by whag, 02-06-2024, 01:46 PM
                              60 responses
                              326 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post whag
                              by whag
                               
                              Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 02-04-2024, 06:06 AM
                              144 responses
                              722 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post tabibito  
                              Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 02-03-2024, 09:07 AM
                              62 responses
                              318 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post eider
                              by eider
                               
                              Started by whag, 01-26-2024, 01:08 PM
                              53 responses
                              311 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                              Working...
                              X