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Women Should be Silent

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  • #31
    I waffle between the "quotation/refutation" explanation and the "scribal margin gloss interpolation" explanation.

    IMO, none of the many other explanations offered sufficiently address "the Law" or the emphatic and absolute way in which "silence" is demanded.

    Keener emphasizes the "ask their own husbands at home" portion, and says that the problem was that women were uneducated and unfamiliar with how to behave in a corporate "teaching" setting that involved orderly (and reasonably informed) Q&A.

    Witherington also emphasizes the "ask their own husbands at home" portion, takes a bit more notice of the immediate "prophesying" setting, and confidently and blithely says the women were treating Christian prophecy like visiting pagan oracles and "inquiring" of them.

    Westfall's view currently escapes me, other than that she believes "law" is referring to "custom," rather than Torah. That strikes me as atypical usage for Paul.

    Lucy Peppiat seems to be the best-known leading proponent of the "quotation/refutation" view. The only detailed presentations I've found online are by others, not her.

    For a while, Gordon Fee was the leading proponent of the "scribal interpolation" view, but I believe Phil Payne is now preeminent in that arena. Andrew Bartlett is another, having made considerable use of Payne.
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    • #32
      Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
      I waffle between the "quotation/refutation" explanation and the "scribal margin gloss interpolation" explanation.

      IMO, none of the many other explanations offered sufficiently address "the Law" or the emphatic and absolute way in which "silence" is demanded.

      Keener emphasizes the "ask their own husbands at home" portion, and says that the problem was that women were uneducated and unfamiliar with how to behave in a corporate "teaching" setting that involved orderly (and reasonably informed) Q&A.

      Witherington also emphasizes the "ask their own husbands at home" portion, takes a bit more notice of the immediate "prophesying" setting, and confidently and blithely says the women were treating Christian prophecy like visiting pagan oracles and "inquiring" of them.

      Westfall's view currently escapes me, other than that she believes "law" is referring to "custom," rather than Torah. That strikes me as atypical usage for Paul.

      Lucy Peppiat seems to be the best-known leading proponent of the "quotation/refutation" view. The only detailed presentations I've found online are by others, not her.

      For a while, Gordon Fee was the leading proponent of the "scribal interpolation" view, but I believe Phil Payne is now preeminent in that arena. Andrew Bartlett is another, having made considerable use of Payne.
      Check the information available.
      • Is there a scriptural law requiring women to be silent?
        No.
      • Does the section requiring silence contradict what has been presented immediately before?
        Indications that it does are strong, but perhaps not conclusively.
      • Is there evidence that point and counterpoint are offered with neither attribution nor any explicit signal that one or the other is being refuted in Koine Greek sources?
        There are many authors who do so, but this is the first time I have encountered mention of a commentator who addresses the issue.
      • Does Paul end the section with a comment indicating censure?
        He does. Try to think of a neutral or positive circumstance which would lead the "question" (1Cor14:36) being asked.


      Checking Peppiat's Unveiling Paul's Women yields There are now numerous scholars who argue that 1 Corinthians 14:33b–35 represents Corinthian thought that Paul is responding to and refuting.

      Peppiatt, Lucy. Unveiling Paul’s Women: Making Sense of 1 Corinthians 11:2–16 (p. 42). Cascade Books, an Imprint of Wipf and Stock Publishers. Kindle Edition.


      No citation to back the claim - H_A would be having conniptions.

      So, on to Women and Worship at Corinth
      Citing Flanagan and Snyder: "The Revised Standard Version translates it: “What! Did the word of God originate with you, or are you the only ones it has reached?” We have emphasised only ones because therein lies the difficulty. In the original Greek it is masculine. Paul is now talking to the men, where we would expect just the opposite."

      Peppiatt, Lucy. Women and Worship at Corinth: Paul’s Rhetorical Arguments in 1 Corinthians (p. 110). Cascade Books, an Imprint of Wipf and Stock Publishers. Kindle Edition.


      Cautionary Note: While I agree that the translation provided by the RSV is valid, the rendering is a dynamic equivalent. IMO, the masculine μονους is entirely expected.

      Whatever else may be said about the content of the citation, it at least acknowledges Paul's expostulation. That Paul saw fit to make the comment should give the reader pause to consider whether the instructions with regard to women originate with Paul or with some members of the Church at Corinth. The comment addresses either the (originators of the) immediately foregoing claims, or it is apropos of nothing.

      And because of your post, two more books have been added to my Kindle library.
      There are also more authors, mentioned by Peppiatt, whose comments need to be investigated.



      Last edited by tabibito; 09-22-2023, 05:27 AM.
      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
      .
      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
      Scripture before Tradition:
      but that won't prevent others from
      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
      of the right to call yourself Christian.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by whag View Post

        I do not permit you to speak. You are to remain silent.
        Yeah, just try and stop me.
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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        • #34
          I've known women that have compelled me to consider that Paul was right to tell them to keep their mouths shut.
          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
          Than a fool in the eyes of God


          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

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          • #35
            Originally posted by whag View Post

            Can't or shouldn't?




            I wonder how edifying it is if it's not meaningful or applicable. It seems to have introduced more confusion and misogyny than it was worth.
            Paul wrote this as a letter to the Corinthians, who would understand the history of their own church and the context of his letter. Unfortunately, we do not. The letter can still be edifying to modern readers without knowing precisely what Paul meant about women in this specific difficult passage.

            Looking this up online, there seem to be a lot of speculation as to what Paul meant. But all seem to agree that it didn't mean that women are unable to speak in church, because of Chapter 11 has them praying and prophesying.


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            • #36
              Originally posted by whag View Post

              I do not permit you to speak. You are to remain silent.
              Nobody is actually speaking. We are typing.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Sparko View Post





                Paul wrote this as a letter to the Corinthians, who would understand the history of their own church and the context of his letter. Unfortunately, we do not. The letter can still be edifying to modern readers without knowing precisely what Paul meant about women in this specific difficult passage.

                Looking this up online, there seem to be a lot of speculation as to what Paul meant. But all seem to agree that it didn't mean that women are unable to speak in church, because of Chapter 11 has them praying and prophesying.
                Then why would you say that you think he is saying women can't speak in tongues? Where do you even get that?

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                  Nobody is actually speaking. We are typing.
                  Type more quitelier.
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by whag View Post
                    1 Corinthians 14:34-37 is not only difficult to square with now but also then:
                    .................................................. ..................................
                    I do not permit Hypatia_Alexandria, Mountain Man, and JimL to speak here. They are to remain silent.

                    Well, two of those names obeyed your command, anyway.
                    Your command reminded me of Paul's, just a bit.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by whag View Post

                      Then why would you say that you think he is saying women can't speak in tongues? Where do you even get that?
                      Because that is what the chapter is about, speaking in tongues. So when he says "women should remain silent" he probably means "speaking in tongues" Not talking in general, since they obviously do that in chapter 11 and he has no problem with that.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                        Because that is what the chapter is about, speaking in tongues. So when he says "women should remain silent" he probably means "speaking in tongues" Not talking in general, since they obviously do that in chapter 11 and he has no problem with that.
                        I understand that, but why would females be precluded from speaking in tongues but allowed to prophesy?

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by eider View Post


                          Well, two of those names obeyed your command, anyway.
                          Your command reminded me of Paul's, just a bit.
                          That was a specific allusion to Paul’s command. Some here weren’t swift enough to get the humor. Gold star for you.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by whag View Post

                            There’s plenty to see here. Silence with respect to prophetic glossolalia is no less of an issue than general silence and submission, so what are you even talking about?
                            Duck, Bob, and Weasel.
                            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                            go with the flow the river knows . . .

                            Frank

                            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by whag View Post

                              That was a specific allusion to Paul’s command. Some here weren’t swift enough to get the humor. Gold star for you.
                              You're right, I think.
                              Some here will duck and dodge as suits the moment, but the Witnesses do have a fairly accurate comprehension of the commands about silent-women, and 'what-da-ya-know' but the women are quiet in their Kings Halls services, and do not deliver speeches or sermons. Even when visiting pagans (like me) the man speaks out and his lady will stay quiet. A JW couple have visited us for decades (they definitely like my wife's cappuccinos) and although the woman is 'quick as flash' in mind, if she wants to make a point during discussion she will zip through the pages of her bible and show her partner a passage, and he will be corrected and continue without her saying hardly a word.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by whag View Post

                                That was a specific allusion to Paul’s command. Some here weren’t swift enough to get the humor. Gold star for you.
                                Or just weren't impressed with it enough to comment.

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