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Women Should be Silent

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  • Women Should be Silent

    1 Corinthians 14:34-37 is not only difficult to square with now but also then:

    34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

    35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

    36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?

    37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.


    How unpleasant for women to be in this church, without even permission to whisper. If a married women wanted to understand what was being said, couldn’t she ask her husband for clarification? Or even the speaker after service? If she was unmarried—which Paul considered the ideal state for full devotion to God—did she have to remain confused?

    The passage about this pronouncement being directly from God’s law is also puzzling, since that implies this is God’s rule, which I highly doubt. I’m skeptical that Jesus is this uptight about female verbal expression.

    I do not permit Hypatia_Alexandria, Mountain Man, and JimL to speak here. They are to remain silent.

  • #2
    What do you do when your wife comes at you with a knife?

    Hand her a jar of mayonnaise. Her natural instincts will kick in and she will make you a sandwich.



    Oh wait, this isn't the Fraternity? rats.

    Comment


    • #3
      Pay no attention to the chapter being about speaking in tongues and prophesying.

      Move along, nothing to see here.

      P1) If , then I win.

      P2)

      C) I win.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        What do you do when your wife comes at you with a knife?

        Hand her a jar of mayonnaise. Her natural instincts will kick in and she will make you a sandwich.



        Oh wait, this isn't the Fraternity? rats.

        I'm always still in trouble again

        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
          Pay no attention to the chapter being about speaking in tongues and prophesying.

          Move along, nothing to see here.

          Exactly. Chapter 11 has women praying and prophesying in Church. Chapter 14 appears to be about speaking in tongues.
          Last edited by Sparko; 09-21-2023, 01:02 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Sparko View Post

            Exactly. Chapter 11 has women praying and prophesying in Church. Chapter 14 appears to be about speaking in tongues.
            Where did I say otherwise?

            Also, what difference would it make if a woman (or man) is speaking in tongues and another woman doesn’t understand it and would like to know what it meant while there instead of at home? Seems reasonable to me.

            Moreover, assuming the church has single women, they should be able to ask anyone for clarification while there. Are we to gather that only males have the interpretation to a multilingual message?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by whag View Post
              Where did I say otherwise?
              I'm gonna go out on a limb here...

              Originally posted by whag View Post

              How unpleasant for women to be in this church, without even permission to whisper.


              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
                Pay no attention to the chapter being about speaking in tongues and prophesying.

                Move along, nothing to see here.

                There’s plenty to see here. Silence with respect to prophetic glossolalia is no less of an issue than general silence and submission, so what are you even talking about?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                  I'm gonna go out on a limb here...

                  That’s a big limb!

                  Speaking of horticulture, let’s weave a couple scenarios and not beat around the bush:
                  1. Either a man or woman says something in glossolalia in this church. A woman needs clarification. Assuming she’s married, she must wait until she gets home to ask her husband for clarification—assuming he even knows the answer.
                  2. Someone declares a prophecy. For some reason, the prophecy isn’t clear, so a single woman doesn’t understand it. Can she ask the prophet what he/she meant?
                  Does this have any applicability to today and if not, why not?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    tabibito, your rich theologian-y services are needed here.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      From what I've read of this passage, the Corinthian women had quite the reputation of taking over conversations. My ministerial schooling on 1 and 2 Cor dealt with the cultural implications of Paul's writing on the society he was writing to. Taking it out of that high context and applying it to ALL women in ALL churches at ALL times is therefore not warranted.
                      That's what
                      - She

                      Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                      - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                      I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                      - Stephen R. Donaldson

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by whag View Post
                        tabibito, your rich theologian-y services are needed here.
                        There are many practical demonstrations of circumstances where the "woman must keep silence" instruction does not work. Heresy spoken from the pulpit, the woman who notices must keep silent?
                        Not on your Nelly.

                        However, the flow of the passage is interesting.

                        1 Corinthians 14:30-36
                        30 But if a revelation is made to another who is seated, the first one must keep silent.
                        31 For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all may be exhorted;
                        32 and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets;
                        33 for God is not [a God] of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
                        34 The women are to * keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as * the Law also says.
                        35 If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.
                        36 Was it from you that the word of God [first] went forth? Or has it come to you only?


                        Immediately after the claim that "all" can do things in turn, Paul apparently reverses course and declares that "all" does not include women. Paul is however addressing certain issues in the Corinthian Church that were causing problems. IMO verses 30 - 33 state Paul's position. Verses 34 - 35 outline a problem teaching. Verse 36 states Paul's response to that teaching. It is a nice demonstration of the difficulties that arise when trying to parse a high context language.

                        IMO a mental insertion of "What the hell are you talking about?!" between vv35 and 36 would not be inappropriate. Verse 36 is definitely expostulatory.
                        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                        .
                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                        Scripture before Tradition:
                        but that won't prevent others from
                        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                        of the right to call yourself Christian.

                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                          From what I've read of this passage, the Corinthian women had quite the reputation of taking over conversations. My ministerial schooling on 1 and 2 Cor dealt with the cultural implications of Paul's writing on the society he was writing to. Taking it out of that high context and applying it to ALL women in ALL churches at ALL times is therefore not warranted.
                          This is probably why they started putting kitchens in baptist churches, to keep the womenfolk occupied.


                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Lemme ask my wife - I'll get back to you.
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                              From what I've read of this passage, the Corinthian women had quite the reputation of taking over conversations. My ministerial schooling on 1 and 2 Cor dealt with the cultural implications of Paul's writing on the society he was writing to. Taking it out of that high context and applying it to ALL women in ALL churches at ALL times is therefore not warranted.
                              It is plausible, but it seems more likely that the Corinthians had a view of women's roles thoroughly at variance from the general thrust of the apostles' teachings. That is not to say that the Corinthians alone had views that weren't in accord with the apostles' teachings.
                              Last edited by tabibito; 09-21-2023, 02:54 PM.
                              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                              .
                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                              Scripture before Tradition:
                              but that won't prevent others from
                              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                              of the right to call yourself Christian.

                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                              Comment

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