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Vengeance of the Martyrs

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  • #76
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    Yes it does, if you understand perishable and imperishable refer to sinful mortal and sinless immortal. He is simply saying that we don't deserve to be made into sinless immortals with glorified bodies. An inheritance is something you deserve to get because of who you are. He is saying we don't deserve to go to heave and live forever. Because we are sinners.
    No it doesn’t. I showed you how the construction doesn’t work. Paul had the language to convey it the way you’re interpreting it if that’s indeed what he meant.

    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    Our mortal bodies are sinful
    Exactly. Paul meant that mortal, corrupt flesh can’t inherit an immortal, incorruptible place.

    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    The only way we can get our immortal glorified bodies is through Christ. It is a gift, not an inheritance.
    Exactly. Only resurrected glorified bodies can go to Heaven. The saints will be resurrected and transformed into a new glorified body, while the damned will only be resurrected for judgement.

    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    And Enoch and Elijah were transformed when they went up into heaven.
    Nowhere does it say that about Enoch and Elijah. Resurrected is more than simple transformation; resurrect means “restore from the dead,” which Enoch and Elijah never were. If you’re making an exception in their case, you’re just assuming—which is fine—but, at the same time, you’d be confirming what Paul said about corrupt flesh not being permitted to pollute Heaven.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by whag View Post

      No it doesn’t. I showed you how the construction doesn’t work. Paul had the language to convey it the way you’re interpreting it if that’s indeed what he meant.



      Exactly. Paul meant that mortal, corrupt flesh can’t inherit an immortal, incorruptible place.



      Exactly. Only resurrected glorified bodies can go to Heaven. The saints will be resurrected and transformed into a new glorified body, while the damned will only be resurrected for judgement.
      OK so maybe we are saying the same thing then.



      Nowhere does it say that about Enoch and Elijah. Resurrected is more than simple transformation; resurrect means “restore from the dead,” which Enoch and Elijah never were. If you’re making an exception in their case, you’re just assuming—which is fine—but, at the same time, you’d be confirming what Paul said about corrupt flesh not being permitted to pollute Heaven.
      In 1 Thes 4 it talks about those of us who are left alive will go up to meet Jesus in the air. Our sinful mortal bodies will be instantly transformed to our glorified immortal bodies. This is what happened to Elijah. You can see that in the Transfiguration on the mount, where Jesus meets with Moses and Elijah in their glorified bodies. I mean, if Elijah didn't have a glorified body he would have died hundreds of years before.




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      • #78
        Originally posted by whag View Post

        That's not a paradox, since gravity remains gravity regardless of counterforce.
        Two different things - 1/ a paradox. 2/ one law of nature being over-ridden by another. But it does underscore why I sometimes use more words than are strictly necessary.

        The rule in 1 Corinthians 15:35-50 that flesh can't inherit Heaven is indeed circumvented by Elijah and Enoch going directly to Heaven in bodily form, but the simpler explanation is that the storytellers of Genesis and 2 Kings were making up their stories. They had no idea Paul would say this centuries later:

        50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.[/BOX]
        Those aren't the points that I had in mind, but your comment has me reconsidering my erstwhile description of Paradise as Heaven's genkan (Japanese: an anteroom between the front door and the entryway to the residence proper).

        The pertinent point is Jesus' comment, "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man" (John 3:13). Flesh and Blood not inheriting heaven is not particularly significant for the "being caught up" (temporarily), because it was only a visit.
        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
        .
        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
        Scripture before Tradition:
        but that won't prevent others from
        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
        of the right to call yourself Christian.

        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

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