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Vengeance of the Martyrs

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  • #61
    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    Given that this is a vision of times yet future, it is entirely possible that the soulshad been clothed with imperishable flesh in accordance with the expectation arising from the description of the future state of the revived-to-life faithful.
    You could have just said “resurrected.”

    And whether they were spirits or resurrected had absolutely no bearing on my argument that it doesn’t sound like something martyrs would do.

    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    No description of the war is provided. It is only said that no place in heaven was subsequently provided for Satan.
    It doesn’t matter that it’s not described but that you believe it, meaning you imagine it consists of some kind of activity with a purpose. You said that a war was happening during Christ’s mission. What do you imagine that was about?

    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    "Was no more" without a qualifier would usually indicate death. "Was no more (to be seen/found)" and a variety of other expressions would indicate that he might not have died. The author of Hebrews does not provide a citation, so why he stated that Enoch had not died is an open question. However, if he had not died, neither had he been granted access to heaven. Paradise maybe, but not heaven.
    You mean Paul is wrong?

    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    The sun making entry through different doors depending on the season would be one. (shown in a vision, so it can perhaps be argued.)
    The lunar cycle falling an average four days short of the solar cycle each year is more of a problem.
    The book as a whole can't be accepted as God-inspired, but that doesn't rule out the inclusion of inspired passages.
    It seems to me your opinion of what’s God-inspired is a bit of dart throwing. What John, Paul, and the author or Enoch write is indistinguishable from what a man can write.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by whag View Post

      You mean Paul is wrong?
      It is generally accepted that the author of Hebrews was not Paul, but someone who was familiar with Paul's gospel. The supporting arguments seem uncommonly sound.
      As to whether the author is wrong, it would be a matter of knowing whether "was no more" has the same implications in Hebrew that it does in English. I am not qualified to make a proper assessment of Hebrew, much less Hebrew idioms, but Psalm 37:26 indicates a probability that the idiom has the same connotations in English and Hebrew.
      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
      .
      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
      Scripture before Tradition:
      but that won't prevent others from
      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
      of the right to call yourself Christian.

      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by tabibito View Post

        It is generally accepted that the author of Hebrews was not Paul, but someone who was familiar with Paul's gospel. The supporting arguments seem uncommonly sound.
        Yes, most scholars--predominantly secular university theologians from countries bordering on the North Atlantic seaboard--dispute that Hebrews and 6 other "Pauline" epistles should be attributed to Paul.

        Originally posted by tabibito View Post
        As to whether the author is wrong, it would be a matter of knowing whether "was no more" has the same implications in Hebrew that it does in English. I am not qualified to make a proper assessment of Hebrew, much less Hebrew idioms, but Psalm 37:26 indicates a probability that the idiom has the same connotations in English and Hebrew.
        Typically, everyone becomes "no more" from dying. Enoch's end needn't be specified unless it meant he bypassed death as a gift for being ultrarighteous. That's what's called a "sound argument," which is why most scholars and commentators--predominately Christian university theologians from across the planet--agree that's what the author of that passage meant.

        I'm really beginning to question this religious education of yours.

        Also, you skipped my question about a war in Heaven during Christ's ministry.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by whag View Post

          Yes, most scholars--predominantly secular university theologians from countries bordering on the North Atlantic seaboard--dispute that Hebrews and 6 other "Pauline" epistles should be attributed to Paul.
          Yes, the Coptic Churches are among those that consider Hebrews to have been written by Paul. It would be rather gratifying if that were the case, because we would then have a clear picture of what the content of Paul's gospel actually was. But you didn't take into account, "The supporting arguments [contra Paul's authorship] seem uncommonly sound." I didn't just read the arguments for a different author and accept them: you left out a key part of my comment. Nor did I express an unqualified acceptance of the majority consensus: I accept it, but am open to being persuaded otherwise. ETA Eastern Orthodox and Rome accept that Paul probably did not write Hebrews. In this case "Majority Consensus" is in fact the majority.

          Typically, everyone becomes "no more" from dying. Enoch's end needn't be specified unless it meant he bypassed death as a gift for being ultrarighteous. That's what's called a "sound argument," which is why most scholars and commentators--predominately Christian university theologians from across the planet--agree that's what the author of that passage meant.
          The comment that Jared died (Genesis 5:20) is also not needed (in English, anyway), but there it is. In verse 24, something is needed to show that Enoch was no longer on Earth, whether or not he died ... "Enoch walked with God ... for God took him" would radically change the meaning, and potentially leave Enoch on Earth.

          Genesis 5:24 "Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him." Where the MT has "took", the LXX has metatithemi ... "transferred, changed, altered." The reference in Hebrews aligns with the LXX, so the idea that Enoch did not die is supported well enough to accept the declaration in Hebrews. Now I can begin looking at commentaries about the verses in question.

          I'm really beginning to question this religious education of yours.
          A reader can find a theologian or even a majority of theologians who will support any given understanding of almost any text. He will also be able to find theologians who will support his favoured understanding of any text, regardless of how flawed that understanding might be. Therefore, until I have examined the source document, I don't take other commentary into account. Commentaries are used to check my own reasoning for flaws, and perhaps to show points that I had not noticed.

          Also, you skipped my question about a war in Heaven during Christ's ministry.
          The question has been answered ... I don't know, and not enough information is provided to even begin to guess.
          Last edited by tabibito; 09-18-2023, 11:17 PM.
          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
          .
          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
          Scripture before Tradition:
          but that won't prevent others from
          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
          of the right to call yourself Christian.

          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by whag View Post
            It seems to me your opinion of what’s God-inspired is a bit of dart throwing. What John, Paul, and the author or Enoch write is indistinguishable from what a man can write.
            On occasion, dart throwing can play a part. What is and is not God inspired can be a highly subjective evaluation at times. A conservative approach is to accept anything as God inspired unless it clearly is not. Some declare that everything in the Bible is God inspired unless the contrary is explicitly stated.
            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
            .
            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
            Scripture before Tradition:
            but that won't prevent others from
            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
            of the right to call yourself Christian.

            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by tabibito View Post
              The comment that Jared died (Genesis 5:20) is also not needed (in English, anyway), but there it is. In verse 24, something is needed to show that Enoch was no longer on Earth, whether or not he died ... "Enoch walked with God ... for God took him" would radically change the meaning, and potentially leave Enoch on Earth.

              Genesis 5:24 "Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him." Where the MT has "took", the LXX has metatithemi ... "transferred, changed, altered." The reference in Hebrews aligns with the LXX, so the idea that Enoch did not die is supported well enough to accept the declaration in Hebrews. Now I can begin looking at commentaries about the verses in question.
              Notice something here?

              5 This is the written account of Adam’s family line.

              When God created mankind, he made them in the likeness of God. 2 He created them male and female and blessed them. And he named them “Mankind”[a] when they were created.

              3 When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth. 4 After Seth was born, Adam lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters. 5 Altogether, Adam lived a total of 930 years, and then he died.

              6 When Seth had lived 105 years, he became the father[b] of Enosh. 7 After he became the father of Enosh, Seth lived 807 years and had other sons and daughters. 8 Altogether, Seth lived a total of 912 years, and then he died.

              9 When Enosh had lived 90 years, he became the father of Kenan. 10 After he became the father of Kenan, Enosh lived 815 years and had other sons and daughters. 11 Altogether, Enosh lived a total of 905 years, and then he died.

              12 When Kenan had lived 70 years, he became the father of Mahalalel. 13 After he became the father of Mahalalel, Kenan lived 840 years and had other sons and daughters. 14 Altogether, Kenan lived a total of 910 years, and then he died.

              15 When Mahalalel had lived 65 years, he became the father of Jared. 16 After he became the father of Jared, Mahalalel lived 830 years and had other sons and daughters. 17 Altogether, Mahalalel lived a total of 895 years, and then he died.

              18 When Jared had lived 162 years, he became the father of Enoch. 19 After he became the father of Enoch, Jared lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters. 20 Altogether, Jared lived a total of 962 years, and then he died.

              21 When Enoch had lived 65 years, he became the father of Methuselah. 22 After he became the father of Methuselah, Enoch walked faithfully with God 300 years and had other sons and daughters. 23 Altogether, Enoch lived a total of 365 years. 24 Enoch walked faithfully with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.

              25 When Methuselah had lived 187 years, he became the father of Lamech. 26 After he became the father of Lamech, Methuselah lived 782 years and had other sons and daughters. 27 Altogether, Methuselah lived a total of 969 years, and then he died.

              28 When Lamech had lived 182 years, he had a son. 29 He named him Noah[c] and said, “He will comfort us in the labor and painful toil of our hands caused by the ground the Lord has cursed.” 30 After Noah was born, Lamech lived 595 years and had other sons and daughters. 31 Altogether, Lamech lived a total of 777 years, and then he died.

              32 After Noah was 500 years old, he became the father of Shem, Ham and Japheth.


              Again, while it's true we are "no more" when we die, Enoch's end is different. Most scholars and commentators agree that's what the author of that passage meant. Most children would agree, tabby.

              Not one scholar, secular or otherwise, would take the position you're taking. I'm sorry, but I don't want to talk to a theologian who uses 27 words to say "resurrected" anymore. I'm out.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by whag View Post

                Notice something here?

                5 This is the written account of Adam’s family line.

                When God created mankind, he made them in the likeness of God. 2 He created them male and female and blessed them. And he named them “Mankind”[a] when they were created.

                3 When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth. 4 After Seth was born, Adam lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters. 5 Altogether, Adam lived a total of 930 years, and then he died.

                6 When Seth had lived 105 years, he became the father[b] of Enosh. 7 After he became the father of Enosh, Seth lived 807 years and had other sons and daughters. 8 Altogether, Seth lived a total of 912 years, and then he died.

                9 When Enosh had lived 90 years, he became the father of Kenan. 10 After he became the father of Kenan, Enosh lived 815 years and had other sons and daughters. 11 Altogether, Enosh lived a total of 905 years, and then he died.

                12 When Kenan had lived 70 years, he became the father of Mahalalel. 13 After he became the father of Mahalalel, Kenan lived 840 years and had other sons and daughters. 14 Altogether, Kenan lived a total of 910 years, and then he died.

                15 When Mahalalel had lived 65 years, he became the father of Jared. 16 After he became the father of Jared, Mahalalel lived 830 years and had other sons and daughters. 17 Altogether, Mahalalel lived a total of 895 years, and then he died.

                18 When Jared had lived 162 years, he became the father of Enoch. 19 After he became the father of Enoch, Jared lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters. 20 Altogether, Jared lived a total of 962 years, and then he died.

                21 When Enoch had lived 65 years, he became the father of Methuselah. 22 After he became the father of Methuselah, Enoch walked faithfully with God 300 years and had other sons and daughters. 23 Altogether, Enoch lived a total of 365 years. 24 Enoch walked faithfully with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.

                25 When Methuselah had lived 187 years, he became the father of Lamech. 26 After he became the father of Lamech, Methuselah lived 782 years and had other sons and daughters. 27 Altogether, Methuselah lived a total of 969 years, and then he died.

                28 When Lamech had lived 182 years, he had a son. 29 He named him Noah[c] and said, “He will comfort us in the labor and painful toil of our hands caused by the ground the Lord has cursed.” 30 After Noah was born, Lamech lived 595 years and had other sons and daughters. 31 Altogether, Lamech lived a total of 777 years, and then he died.

                32 After Noah was 500 years old, he became the father of Shem, Ham and Japheth.


                Again, while it's true we are "no more" when we die, Enoch's end is different. Most scholars and commentators agree that's what the author of that passage meant. Most children would agree, tabby.

                Not one scholar, secular or otherwise, would take the position you're taking. I'm sorry, but I don't want to talk to a theologian who uses 27 words to say "resurrected" anymore. I'm out.
                Strange. I ceded the point about Enoch being taken up without dying.
                27 words would ordinarily be unnecessary, but "resurrected" can take on some rather strange connotations among atheists, and I didn't know what the word might imply to you.
                Last edited by tabibito; 09-19-2023, 02:35 AM.
                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                .
                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                Scripture before Tradition:
                but that won't prevent others from
                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                  Strange. I ceded the point about Enoch being taken up without dying.
                  27 words would ordinarily be unnecessary, but "resurrected" can take on some rather strange connotations among atheists, and I didn't know what the word might imply to you.
                  Many apologies. It's funny seeing you trigger frustration in Christians and skeptics alike through your "unorthodox" views of inspiration. I was frustrated because you took a long time realizing what seemed plain to me on seeing Genesis 5's construction. The support, I thought, was sufficient in the author's deliberate form. Call me old fashioned that way.

                  As for the long definition of "resurrected," yes, just assume I know what embodied means in relation to Heaven. And to that point, let's go back to John and his vision. You've stated previously in another thread that you believe Paul was referring to John the apostle in 2 Corinthians 12:2:

                  I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.


                  If corrupt bodies aren't permitted in Heaven, shouldn't Paul know that John was out of body during his visit there?

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by whag View Post

                    Many apologies. It's funny seeing you trigger frustration in Christians and skeptics alike through your "unorthodox" views of inspiration. I was frustrated because you took a long time realizing what seemed plain to me on seeing Genesis 5's construction. The support, I thought, was sufficient in the author's deliberate form. Call me old fashioned that way.
                    The problem with Genesis 5 is that while the form "and was not" is unique in the over-all pattern, so too is "he walked with God." Without the LXX rendering, I would still have reservations about the reference in Hebrews. (and I'll admit to being remiss in not checking the LXX earlier). Perhaps I am a little overzealous about avoiding adding to and subtracting from the texts, but the number of false doctrines would be reduced by half if reading-in were a less popular pastime.

                    As for the long definition of "resurrected," yes, just assume I know what embodied means in relation to Heaven. And to that point, let's go back to John and his vision. You've stated previously in another thread that you believe Paul was referring to John the apostle in 2 Corinthians 12:2
                    I consider it a possibility, not a certainty, and "not Paul" quite probable.

                    I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.


                    If corrupt bodies aren't permitted in Heaven, shouldn't Paul know that John was out of body during his visit there?
                    Paul's statement is that the unrighteous inherit nothing of heaven, and that flesh and blood (i.e. the mortal) cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Off-hand, I can't think of a reference that would preclude a flying visit. Paul's uncertainty about that detail of the man caught up makes the idea that he was referring to himself improbable. Just what the third heaven might be continues to be intriguing. I favour
                    • 1. "sky;"
                    • 2. "Sheol (possibly only the upmarket section)/Paradise"
                    • 3. "the kingdom proper"
                    idea, but am nothing like invested in it.
                    Last edited by tabibito; 09-20-2023, 12:28 AM.
                    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                    .
                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                    Scripture before Tradition:
                    but that won't prevent others from
                    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                    of the right to call yourself Christian.

                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                      The problem with Genesis 5 is that while the form "and was not" is unique in the over-all pattern, so too is "he walked with God."
                      Enoch's walking faithfully with God was exactly why he skipped death. It's not a problem but a giant hint.

                      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                      Without the LXX rendering, I would still have reservations about the reference in Hebrews. (and I'll admit to being remiss in not checking the LXX earlier). Perhaps I am a little overzealous about avoiding adding to and subtracting from the texts, but the number of false doctrines would be reduced by half if reading-in were a less popular pastime.
                      You certainly are overzealous in that regard. The verse cannot be interpreted any other way.

                      I do, however, understand your stubbornness to accept it, come to think of it. No verb describing what could possibly have happened to Enoch makes sense, does it? He can't be transplanted into Heaven in bodily form. His spirit can't be plucked from his body, since his flesh would be discarded, which is just another form of dying. Saints who die become spirits that are joined back with their resurrected and glorified bodies. Except for Elijah and Enoch, that's the fate of all the redeemed.

                      Their exception seems odd in a universe of hard and fast rules.
                      Last edited by whag; 09-21-2023, 12:00 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by whag View Post

                        Enoch's walking faithfully with God was exactly why he skipped death. It's not a problem but a giant hint.



                        You certainly are overzealous in that regard. The verse cannot be interpreted any other way.

                        I do, however, understand your stubbornness to accept it, come to think of it. No verb describing what could possibly have happened to Enoch makes sense, does it? He can't be transplanted into Heaven in bodily form. His spirit can't be plucked from his body, since his flesh would be discarded, which is just another form of dying. Saints who die become spirits that are joined back with their resurrected and glorified bodies. Except for Elijah and Enoch, that's the fate of all the redeemed.

                        Their exception seems odd in a universe of hard and fast rules.
                        The occasional paradox keeps life interesting, and one hard and fast rule can be circumvented by another. e.g. gravity is overruled by aerodynamics.
                        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                        .
                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                        Scripture before Tradition:
                        but that won't prevent others from
                        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                        of the right to call yourself Christian.

                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                          The occasional paradox keeps life interesting, and one hard and fast rule can be circumvented by another. e.g. gravity is overruled by aerodynamics.
                          That's not a paradox, since gravity remains gravity regardless of counterforce.

                          The rule in 1 Corinthians 15:35-50 that flesh can't inherit Heaven is indeed circumvented by Elijah and Enoch going directly to Heaven in bodily form, but the simpler explanation is that the storytellers of Genesis and 2 Kings were making up their stories. They had no idea Paul would say this centuries later:

                          35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

                          42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

                          If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”[f]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we[g] bear the image of the heavenly man.

                          50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by whag View Post

                            That's not a paradox, since gravity remains gravity regardless of counterforce.

                            The rule in 1 Corinthians 15:35-50 that flesh can't inherit Heaven is indeed circumvented by Elijah and Enoch going directly to Heaven in bodily form, but the simpler explanation is that the storytellers of Genesis and 2 Kings were making up their stories. They had no idea Paul would say this centuries later:

                            35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

                            42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

                            If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”[f]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we[g] bear the image of the heavenly man.

                            50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
                            "inherit" means in context "deserve" - it is talking about sinful flesh and blood, meaning that people don't deserve heaven, not that they can't go there bodily or any other way. It is talking about how we are all sinful and we can't demand we deserve to be in heaven. We can only get there by Jesus' sacrifice. We don't deserve heaven. But God gives it to us as an undeserved gift.

                            We will have glorified bodies in heaven. No more sinful flesh.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                              "inherit" means in context "deserve" - it is talking about sinful flesh and blood, meaning that people don't deserve heaven, not that they can't go there bodily or any other way. It is talking about how we are all sinful and we can't demand we deserve to be in heaven. We can only get there by Jesus' sacrifice. We don't deserve heaven. But God gives it to us as an undeserved gift.

                              We will have glorified bodies in heaven. No more sinful flesh.
                              That doesn’t work if you substitute “cannot inherit” with “do not deserve.”

                              “Nor does the perishable deserve the imperishable,” also doesn’t work. He meant “inherit” as in “corrupted flesh cannot
                              pollute Heaven.”

                              Although righteous, Enoch and Elijah were composed of corrupted flesh.
                              Last edited by whag; 09-21-2023, 12:39 PM.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by whag View Post

                                That doesn’t work if you substitute “cannot inherit” with “do not deserve.”

                                “Nor does the perishable deserve the imperishable,” also doesn’t work. He meant “inherit” as in “corrupted flesh cannot
                                pollute Heaven.”

                                Although righteous, Enoch and Elijah were composed of corrupted flesh.
                                Yes it does, if you understand perishable and imperishable refer to sinful mortal and sinless immortal. He is simply saying that we don't deserve to be made into sinless immortals with glorified bodies. An inheritance is something you deserve to get because of who you are. He is saying we don't deserve to go to heave and live forever. Because we are sinners. Our mortal bodies are sinful.

                                The only way we can get our immortal glorified bodies is through Christ. It is a gift, not an inheritance.

                                And Enoch and Elijah were transformed when they went up into heaven. Just like we will be when Jesus returns.

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