Announcement

Collapse

Apologetics 301 Guidelines

If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you


This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Vengeance of the Martyrs

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post

    I believe it was what God showed him and accurate as far as meaning goes. But a vision can use visual metaphors and such. Especially in apocalyptic genre, like Daniel and Revelation. Like Daniel's vision of the statue with clay feet, etc. I believe he saw the statue, but the statue represented different kingdoms and their strength.

    I don't think there are literally spirits sitting under God's altar whining about when will they be avenged. I believe it is a vision to represent the church wanting Jesus to come soon and Jesus explaining that there are still things that need to be accomplished, including gaining more converts and then justice will be meted out.
    I agree that’s what most religious visions are. It’s tempting to see this as an event report—hence Diogenes’ and tabibito’s defense of the account as a mere request for information said in sing-song fashion. While not without its difficulties, your interpretation is a more reasonable take; it bypasses the strangeness of martyred Christians in Heaven creepily asking their savior when their “blood will be avenged.”

    I wonder whether John considered this when documenting his dream.



    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by tabibito View Post

      It could just as readily be a simple request for information, much along the lines of the disciples' enquiry in Matthew 24:3 / Mark 13:4.
      Doubtful, given the language. “Avenge our blood” suggests more than a simple inquiry at the Information Booth. As I noted earlier, their specific murderers would be soon be dead if immediate action isn’t taken. Taken literally, they are obviously eager for this.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by whag View Post

        Doubtful, given the language. “Avenge our blood” suggests more than a simple inquiry at the Information Booth. As I noted earlier, their specific murderers would be soon be dead if immediate action isn’t taken. Taken literally, they are obviously eager for this.
        "The souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;" doesn't restrict the identify of the souls to Christians. The number might well include people of Old Testament times who met the same penalty.

        "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" doe not identify the "dwellers of the Earth" as those who specifically engaged in the murder of the souls concerned: in fact, it cannot be making such an identification. These events are yet to happen at the time of writing, and the first seal is, at the time of writing, yet to be opened, as shown by Revelation 4:10-11, where the book with seven seals is introduced as the topic. It is possible that from the author's perspective, the number of those souls might yet increase before the opening of the seal.

        An additional problem arises with the rendering of hupokatoe as "underneath:" the people gathered in St Peter's Square to hear the Pope's address are hupokatoe the balcony from which the Pope delivers his address (cf John 1:50, 1Kings 4:20, Judges 7:8).
        Last edited by tabibito; 09-06-2023, 01:24 PM.
        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
        .
        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
        Scripture before Tradition:
        but that won't prevent others from
        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
        of the right to call yourself Christian.

        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by whag View Post

          I agree that’s what most religious visions are. It’s tempting to see this as an event report—hence Diogenes’ and tabibito’s defense of the account as a mere request for information said in sing-song fashion. While not without its difficulties, your interpretation is a more reasonable take; it bypasses the strangeness of martyred Christians in Heaven creepily asking their savior when their “blood will be avenged.”

          I wonder whether John considered this when documenting his dream.


          I don't know. Maybe it was a "secret code" that only Christians would understand? After all this was written during a time of persecution. And they had Daniel written in the same style so likely they would understand what was being said. But all that is just a personal guess.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Sparko View Post

            I don't know. Maybe it was a "secret code" that only Christians would understand? After all this was written during a time of persecution. And they had Daniel written in the same style so likely they would understand what was being said. But all that is just a personal guess.
            Maybe not so much a "secret code" but references idioms or allusions to things lost through time. That's why even a few old proverbs found in various regions often sound silly and even nonsensical today,[1] but certainly made sense back "in the day."



            1. in case certain cavil posters read this I'll be clear that at the moment no particular specific one comes to mind.

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
              Maybe not so much a "secret code" but references idioms or allusions to things lost through time. That's why even a few old proverbs found in various regions often sound silly and even nonsensical today,[1] but certainly made sense back "in the day."



              1. in case certain cavil posters read this I'll be clear that at the moment no particular specific one comes to mind.
              Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                "The souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;" doesn't restrict the identify of the souls to Christians. The number might well include people of Old Testament times who met the same penalty.
                I think John meant those killed for Christ. If he meant OT martyrs, that question would have been lodged long before this.

                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" doe not identify the "dwellers of the Earth" as those who specifically engaged in the murder of the souls concerned: in fact, it cannot be making such an identification. These events are yet to happen at the time of writing, and the first seal is, at the time of writing, yet to be opened, as shown by Revelation 4:10-11, where the book with seven seals is introduced as the topic. It is possible that from the author's perspective, the number of those souls might yet increase before the opening of the seal.
                To clarify, now you believe it's the collective blood of all martyred saints that includes their future killed brethren. Is that what you're saying?

                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                An additional problem arises with the rendering of hupokatoe as "underneath:" the people gathered in St Peter's Square to hear the Pope's address are hupokatoe the balcony from which the Pope delivers his address (cf John 1:50, 1Kings 4:20, Judges 7:8).
                To clarify, you believe John was referring to the Pope's future audience as making this unison cry?

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by whag View Post

                  I think John meant those killed for Christ. If he meant OT martyrs, that question would have been lodged long before this.
                  Yet John said, "the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God ..." If that is the "word" (rather than "Word"), it would include the souls of those who had been slain for giving their testimony. If he had meant Christians, it would be Word, but even "Word" might include people who lived prior to the time of Christ - "the Word" ("Dabar," or in the Targums "Memra") as a person occurs in the Old Testament, with "Memra of God" being said to act in places where the Hebrew simply has God acting, not only in places where the Hebrew has the "Dabar of God" acting.



                  To clarify, now you believe it's the collective blood of all martyred saints that includes their future killed brethren. Is that what you're saying?
                  The seal is broken well after John's time. The number would include anyone who had been killed for their testimony up until the time the seal is broken.



                  To clarify, you believe John was referring to the Pope's future audience as making this unison cry?
                  No; I'm saying that the translation or interpretation of hupokatoe as "underneath" or similar could be misleading. The circumstance of St Peter's Square is provided as a demonstration of one valid interpretation of hupokatoe
                  Last edited by tabibito; 09-07-2023, 01:19 AM.
                  1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                  .
                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                  Scripture before Tradition:
                  but that won't prevent others from
                  taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                  of the right to call yourself Christian.

                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                    Yet John said, "the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God ..." If that is the "word" (rather than "Word"), it would include the souls of those who had been slain for giving their testimony. If he had meant Christians, it would be Word, but even "Word" might include people who lived prior to the time of Christ - "the Word" ("Dabar," or in the Targums "Memra") as a person occurs in the Old Testament, with "Memra of God" being said to act in places where the Hebrew simply has God acting, not only in places where the Hebrew has the "Dabar of God" acting.
                    Okay, so let’s include them. So now Abel and Zechariah are joining in the chorus of martyrs who are asking Jesus when their blood will be avenged. They are spirits who’ve been in the company of pre-incarnate and post-incarnate Jesus for thousands of years. Do I have that right before I proceed?

                    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                    The seal is broken well after John's time. The number would include anyone who had been killed for their testimony up until the time the seal is broken.
                    Okay.

                    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                    No; I'm saying that the translation or interpretation of hupokatoe as "underneath" or similar could be misleading. The circumstance of St Peter's Square is provided as a demonstration of one valid interpretation of hupokatoe
                    I never objected to the preposition “underneath” but merely wondered why martyrs would ask in unison when their blood will be avenged.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by whag View Post

                      Okay, so let’s include them. So now Abel and Zechariah are joining in the chorus of martyrs who are asking Jesus when their blood will be avenged.
                      Avenged? Possibly. The Bible is not shy about God exacting vengeance when all other avenues have been exhausted. Abel and Zechariah and others also can't be excluded from being among the people gathered below, which is not to say that the Old Testament prophets are definitely included, but Matthew 23:34-35 / Luke 11:49-51 certainly don't negate the possibility.

                      They are spirits who’ve been in the company of pre-incarnate and post-incarnate Jesus for thousands of years. Do I have that right before I proceed?
                      Souls often enough refers to people even when they aren't ghosts, but yes, anyone added to their number until the time that the seal is broken. I think it is safe to say that until now, not even the first seal has been broken.

                      I never objected to the preposition “underneath” but merely wondered why martyrs would ask in unison when their blood will be avenged.
                      YOU did not: I simply put that aside in so as to circumvent possible comments by others. The description, IMO, follows patterns that seem to be common among societies of the time for imperial courts, or imperially constituted courts. Again IMO, given that it is a vision, it would have been presented in a form that the author could easily relate to. It might be no more than a symbolic presentation.
                      Last edited by tabibito; 09-07-2023, 03:06 PM.
                      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                      .
                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                      Scripture before Tradition:
                      but that won't prevent others from
                      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                      of the right to call yourself Christian.

                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                        Avenged? Possibly. The Bible is not shy about God exacting vengeance when all other avenues have been exhausted.
                        “The Bible is not shy” assumes authorial personality (similar to Truman Capote was not shy about addressing social class and inequality). The Bible, rather, is a mishmash of inscribed oral tradition written by an unknown number of authors. To assume the consequence (red) always follows the condition (blue) would be incorrect, since a plethora of examples could be provided where other avenues, in fact, aren’t exhausted.

                        If you only meant to say “God in the Bible sometimes enacts vengeance,” that’s not news nor did I ever deny it.

                        Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                        Abel and Zechariah and others also can't be excluded from being among the people gathered below, which is not to say that the Old Testament prophets are definitely included, but Matthew 23:34-35 / Luke 11:49-51 certainly don't negate the possibility.
                        Okay, so let’s include all the figures killed for preaching and teaching wisdom from Genesis onwards.

                        Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                        Souls often enough refers to people even when they aren't ghosts, but yes, anyone added to their number until the time that the seal is broken. I think it is safe to say that until now, not even the first seal has been broken.
                        You’re quibbling. I didn’t say anything about souls but “spirits” and was clearly referring to dead people.

                        Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                        YOU did not: I simply put that aside in so as to circumvent possible comments by others. The description, IMO, follows patterns that seem to be common among societies of the time for imperial courts, or imperially constituted courts. Again IMO, given that it is a vision, it would have been presented in a form that the author could easily relate to. It might be no more than a symbolic presentation.
                        Just so I’m following you, which is the symbol? The altar? So far, you seem to be making the case this is a real future event where dead human beings are asking a question of a member of the trinity. If you’re actually making the case the whole vision is symbolic—including the exchange between the dead and Christ, the white robes, the whole shebang—please be plain and direct so we don’t go in circles on this.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by whag View Post

                          “The Bible is not shy” assumes authorial personality (similar to Truman Capote was not shy about addressing social class and inequality). The Bible, rather, is a mishmash of inscribed oral tradition written by an unknown number of authors. To assume the consequence (red) always follows the condition (blue) would be incorrect, since a plethora of examples could be provided where other avenues, in fact, aren’t exhausted.



                          If you only meant to say “God in the Bible sometimes enacts vengeance,” that’s not news nor did I ever deny it.
                          I will amend to "when all other avenues have been exhausted, and on occasion, even when they haven't." (there may be a question mark over whether a human might have enough information to make that assessment.)

                          You’re quibbling. I didn’t say anything about souls but “spirits” and was clearly referring to dead people.
                          Which gives rise to the question, "From whence did you derive 'spirits'?"



                          Just so I’m following you, which is the symbol? The altar? So far, you seem to be making the case this is a real future event where dead human beings are asking a question of a member of the trinity. If you’re actually making the case the whole vision is symbolic—including the exchange between the dead and Christ, the white robes, the whole shebang—please be plain and direct so we don’t go in circles on this.
                          A real future event, yes. How much of the story is presented in symbolic terms, either to or by the author? In one place, he writes about trumpets speaking ... which is kind of weird, but how would a writer (assume that someone else was describing a different set of future events) have described a gramophone to an audience who had experienced nothing that resembled the device and nothing that even made an accurate description comprehensible?
                          Likewise descriptions of armies on horse-back and their horses (Revelation 19:16-17) ... They seem to be symbolic portrayals of real events.


                          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                          .
                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                          Scripture before Tradition:
                          but that won't prevent others from
                          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                          of the right to call yourself Christian.

                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by whag View Post

                            Not really. Courts aren't in the business of vengeance but justice. Vengeance is sometimes felt by the victim, but this is only in cases where forgiveness does not override the desire for retribution unique associated with Christianity:

                            • Luke 6:27 - But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you.
                            • Matthew 5:44 - But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you.
                            • Luke 23:34 - Then Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."
                            • Matthew 6:14-15 - For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
                            Courts are essentially vengeance by a third party. Their purpose is to prevent endless blood feuds so both parties allow a third to adjudicate the matter. You seem to be forgetting Romans 12:9 "Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord." (KJV) You are confusing the commands to humans regarding intra-human affairs with the martyrs asking God to bring justice for their murders.


                            A liturgy is entirely different. This isn't described as a prayer or hymn but a question. You do bring up a good point, however, in interpreting it literally as in they all asked this question in perfect unison. That'd imply they rehearsed it to start on cue. Like all literal interpretations of apocalyptic literature, that strays into weird territory.
                            It need not be rehearsed and the opening of the seal would be a cue. A rhetorical question as a supplication (i.e. a petitioning prayer) like "Do you not care?" is not extraordinary. I would view it much more ritualistic in creating the response as presumably the martyrs would know the eventual result.

                            Moreover, if literalism is established here in the synced cry for avengement, then the whole book is literally true. Christ literally reigns for a thousand years in a city paved with gold and festooned with gems.

                            Like all apocalypses, it sounds like a man wrote it.
                            And? Is there an issue with a literal Millennial reign? Having what is precious to Man as no more important than a paving stone is consistent with the devaluation of earthly treasure.
                            P1) If , then I win.

                            P2)

                            C) I win.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                              Which gives rise to the question, "From whence did you derive 'spirits'?"
                              From the two most well-known martyrs in the NT:

                              Acts 7:59
                              And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”

                              Luke 23:46
                              Jesus called out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.”


                              Where are you going with this line of questioning, counselor? I'm very curious what else you think they could be.

                              Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                              A real future event, yes. How much of the story is presented in symbolic terms, either to or by the author? In one place, he writes about trumpets speaking ... which is kind of weird, but how would a writer (assume that someone else was describing a different set of future events) have described a gramophone to an audience who had experienced nothing that resembled the device and nothing that even made an accurate description comprehensible?
                              Likewise descriptions of armies on horse-back and their horses (Revelation 19:16-17) ... They seem to be symbolic portrayals of real events.
                              No doubt, but the exchange between the martyrs and God is a simple question followed by an answer--not obviously symbolic (expect for maybe the robes, which could be both real and symbolic or just symbols). If you believe all the elements are symbolic, you'll have to explain the author's intent. Do you believe the exchange takes place or stands for something else?

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
                                Courts are essentially vengeance by a third party. Their purpose is to prevent endless blood feuds so both parties allow a third to adjudicate the matter. You seem to be forgetting Romans 12:9 "Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord." (KJV) You are confusing the commands to humans regarding intra-human affairs with the martyrs asking God to bring justice for their murders.
                                It makes no sense for martyrs to remind God about repayment since Jesus circumvented their justice (how quickly that's forgotten).

                                Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
                                It need not be rehearsed and the opening of the seal would be a cue.
                                They literally ask the question in unison when the literal wax is broken?

                                Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
                                A rhetorical question as a supplication (i.e. a petitioning prayer) like "Do you not care?" is not extraordinary. I would view it much more ritualistic in creating the response as presumably the martyrs would know the eventual result.
                                It's not a rhetorical question since Jesus answers them: "Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been."

                                Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
                                And? Is there an issue with a literal Millennial reign? Having what is precious to Man as no more important than a paving stone is consistent with the devaluation of earthly treasure.
                                You believe the millennial reign is literal?

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by shunyadragon, 02-15-2024, 12:52 PM
                                74 responses
                                309 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post whag
                                by whag
                                 
                                Started by whag, 02-06-2024, 01:46 PM
                                60 responses
                                319 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post whag
                                by whag
                                 
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 02-04-2024, 06:06 AM
                                144 responses
                                721 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post tabibito  
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 02-03-2024, 09:07 AM
                                62 responses
                                317 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post eider
                                by eider
                                 
                                Started by whag, 01-26-2024, 01:08 PM
                                53 responses
                                311 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                                Working...
                                X